From a JW point of view, the demons prefer to stay HIDDEN. They don't want us to be aware of them. If everyone on earth knew about them, saw them, watched them, then they'd realize that there are bigger things to life, such as God, Jesus and Satan.
Even if you don't believe in God, do you believe that spirits exist?
by sonnyboy 53 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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seattleniceguy
sonnyboy,
Either someone's lying or there's more to this than meets the eye.
It may not be an either-or situation. I'm sure there are a lot of liars out there on this topic, but a lot of people are simply fooled. Just like the JWs, who sincerely believe things we know are not true, it is possible for people to be totally fooled and pass on bad information. I wouldn't call these people liars.
I'm interested in what you think about my experiment. I was serious about that. Why not give it a try? It should only take a few minutes, and you should be able to forever put to bed the question of whether or not the Ouija board works or not. Knowledge is always good, right? I'd certainly rather know than not know. Plus if you get it working reliably, you should be privvy to a treasure trove of other knowledge. If real, the potential benefits are huge. If not real, then there's no use worrying about it.
SNG
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rem
Hey Sonny,
I have experienced many strange things in my lifetime that probably most people in the world would categorize as "paranormal". After doing some research on the topic I have come to another interpretation of the events that makes a lot more sense to me. I agree the Bullshit show is biased... it's entertainment. But there really is a lot of good science out there and that is what the show is based on.
Some great resources are:
Pseudoscience and the Paranormal, Terence Hines
Demon Haunted World, Carl Sagan
Why People Believe Weird Things, Michael Shermer
In Search of the Light, Susan Blackmore (this is more of a biography of a paranormal scientist)
The point is that those "ghost hunters" are not doing science at all, and when you are not doing real science it is easy to interpret things (and even nothing) however you want. Usually this corresponds with our presuppositions.
Notice that they never:
Calibrated their sensitive instruments
Tried to isolate the room from any external electromagnetic forces (turning electricity off, etc.)
Wore any special clothing to isolate themselves from the area
Meticulously mapped out and measured the room(s) into a 3D grid and took measurements from each point
Repeated the above measurements a set number of times for each point
Did a detailed study on any outside electromagnetic influences (power lines, antennae, etc.)
Fed the measurements into a computer to create a model to see if there really were any anomalous readings
Further investigate anamolous readings instead of automatically positing ghosts
I could go on and on. I'm not a scientist, but even I know there is more to paranormal investigation than randomly pointing an uncalibrated magnetometer around a room and looking for it to go off the charts.
And remember, when the "ghost hunters" find nothing out of the ordinary (that's to say, they are finding electromagnetic interference, but not in the way they expect) they then go back to another highly dubious detection method: finding Orbs in digital photography.
I won't even go into the sillyness of that, but suffice it to say that there is a very simple explanation for it - it might be fun for you to find that out for yourself.
So skeptics are not always skeptics just because they haven't experienced strange things. Many times it's because they have actually done research on this topic instead of relying on stories from a friend of a friend or from books/tv shows with equally bad anecdotal "evidence".
Cheers,
rem -
tetrapod.sapien
From a JW point of view, the demons prefer to stay HIDDEN. They don't want us to be aware of them. If everyone on earth knew about them, saw them, watched them, then they'd realize that there are bigger things to life, such as God, Jesus and Satan.
good point truthseeker, but it's not just JWs who say this. all paranormalists assert a version of it.
and to this i always say that satan could get tonnes of people on his side by just improving the world a little bit more. people would mistake him for god, and presto! billions of people dying with him at armagedon . if he's so brilliant, why not cut god out, and help biogerontologists speed up human longevity? who would need god then. all would worship satan.
or, he could just show off some of his power. he could establish his existence without a doubt. this would change the world overnight.
instead nothing happens, and we continue on as if we were all alone.
the JWs make satan seem stupid with their assertion that he wants to remain hidden. and how convenient for them! he doesn't exist, and therefore doesn't show himself, so he must be hiding! when i reality, if he was who they say he is, and he wants to be a god, then he could do a lot more to convince us that he exists.
TS
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sonnyboy
SNG,
I thought about doing a similar experiment in which dice would be blindly thrown into an open box and the board would be asked the outcome. I may try it later tonight and see what happens...if I can find another willing participant.
You suggest that if genuine, a plethora of knowledge could be obtained from the board. Who's to say that, if there are spirits amongst us, they'll be helpful in any way? Humouring the possibility that they exist, perhaps their only intent is to entertain themselves. I'm not even sure if they'd be willing to participate in the dice experiment. I've been doing a lot of reading on spirit boards, and most "experts" say that you shouldn't ask trivial questions.
One thing that I haven't heard explained is if spirits ARE channeled through talking boards, why do we need to touch the planchette in order for it to move? If they're powerful enough to control my actions, or whatever they're supposed to be controlling, why not simply move the thing from letter to letter automatically?
REM,
Good points. I don't believe half the stuff I see on those paranormal programs (such as the orbs), but some of it has no explanation that I can think of.
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M.J.
How can I believe in God yet be such a total skeptic when it comes to paranormal stuff? Not sure, I'm working on it. I always have been skeptical at stories of "this is what happened to so and so" or even with my own sister talking about some spirit inhabiting her dorm room. Whatever.
Check out the James Randi One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge:
http://www.randi.org/research/index.html
The challenge has been ongoing since 1964.At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant."
To date, no one has ever passed the preliminary tests.
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sonnyboy
Check out the James Randi One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge:
Playing the devil's advocate here, maybe spirits don't want to show the world proof or aren't allowed to provide proof of their existence? Maybe it's left up to the targeted individual to decide?
I don't know. I'm always open to possibilities.
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Abaddon
sonnybot, techincally what you suggest is know as special pleading...for example;
"I can't prove it but what if the tooth fairy made parent's THINK they put the money there?"
It is unanswerable by itself, but if the "powers that be" want to play silly games, and hide existnece of the paranormal that might make me make different choices, and then punish me for refusing to accept one brand of unprovable say-so over another, then they are assholes.
Now, do you want to let your life be run by assholes, or will you confine adjusting your life to data, stimuli or theories that are provable in some way?
The great thing is, the choice really is yours.
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tetrapod.sapien
Playing the devil's advocate here, maybe spirits don't want to show the world proof or aren't allowed to provide proof of their existence? Maybe it's left up to the targeted individual to decide?
again: how conveeeeeeeenient!so, let's go over this again:
- we have a parsimonious explanation for how the Ouija board works.
- we have tests that can falsify spirit activity with the board.
- and yet we will still find unparsimonious , and unfalsifiable reasons to believe.
sounds like a bunch of paleolithic brains in good working order!
(i know you were playing advocate of da debil . i am playing advocate of nature. he he)
TS
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M.J.
ideomotor effect This is the psychological phenomenon that underlies dowsing, automatic writing , table tipping , and the Ouija board . Quite unconsciously, the participant is moving the hand enough to make the movement of the involved device occur, though he may attribute the motion to the divine or supernatural force in which he believes. In all these events, nothing in the way of information is revealed to the operator except what he already knows. The effect is very powerful with some personalities, and no amount of evidence will disabuse believers in the magical nature of the phenomenon.