The other day I ran into a JW elder that I knew many years ago as a teenager when I was a "devout" JW and he who has been a "devout" JW for over 40 years started to debate with me. I tried to avoid him because I have basically stopped debating with JW's on the Bible but since we both were at the "DMV" there was a long waiting period. The elder started on the "trinity" doctrine and said that "born-again christians" hold onto the "bodily reserrection of Jesus" doctrine not because they believe it but because they use it as a"magic wand" whenever that cannot answer scriptures that show Jesus is less than the Father. He said that BAC(born-again christians) will hold onto this ridiculous doctrine even when the absurdity of it is revealed just to have a loophole when that can't answer scriptures that disprove the trinity. For example the elder mentioned that when you asked a born-again christian how can Jesus have a God over him and at the same time be God BACs will scream out "Jesus is speaking in his human nature" and the born-again feels that this immediately gets them off the hook with the scripture at John 20:17 where Jesus is saying "My God" about Jehovah after he retured to heaven. The elder said that if Jesus and Jehovah are equal to each other there is no way Jesus could call Jehovah "My God" without there being two Gods. The elder gave me an analogy and said that all the apostles could use the same argument if they are in a body of flesh and bone right now in heaven. How would believers be able to distinguish Jehovah being greater than the Apostle Paul if Paul is in his human nature right now in heaven? Also if we are going to have the "same" body in heaven than people would be able to have sexual relations in heaven because we would have the same body. The elder said that born-agains are really preaching Mormon doctrine when they try and use the "bodily reserrection of Jesus" doctrine. He also said that how could the 144,000 be priest and kings with Christ but not with the Holy Ghost if Jesus and the Holy Ghost are equal? The Holy Ghost is hardly mentioned in the book of revelations which would be stupid if there was a third divine person. Salvation we owe to the one on the throne and to the Lamb but nowhere is the Holy Ghost mentioned which again would make no sense if Jehovah, Jesus and the Holy Ghost were 3 in 1.Believers have the name of the father and of the son but nowhere in Rev 14:1 is the name of the Holy Ghost mentioned being on the foreheads of believers. What are your thoughts on the "bodily reserrection doctrine of Jesus" is it just a loophole for BACs to avoid scripture that disprove the "trinity"?
Without the "bodily reserrection of Jesus" there goes the "Trinity"
by booker-t 10 Replies latest watchtower bible
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stillajwexelder
No I am going to be good and resist the urge to get involved in yet another Trinity Thread. Jesus is seated at the right hnd of God so I understand from the scriptures
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dilaceratus
Never mind the doctrine of the Trinity-- your description of standing in line at the DMV with a Jehovah's Witness while discussing the Trinity has established the factual basis for the doctrine of a Hell of Eternal Torment.
Did you not notice the others in the line garroting themselves with their shoelaces, and wrapping their faces in wastebasket liners? -
ellderwho
Never mind the doctrine of the Trinity-- your description of standing in line at the DMV with a Jehovah's Witness while discussing the Trinity has established the factual basis for the doctrine of a Hell of Eternal Torment.
LMAO!!!
The elder said that if Jesus and Jehovah are equal to each other there is no way Jesus could call Jehovah "My God" without there being two Gods. ;
Then I would dierct the elder to Jo. 1:1 (nwt) Looks like two Gods to me.
What are your thoughts on the "bodily reserrection doctrine of Jesus" is it just a loophole for BACs to avoid scripture that disprove the "trinity"?
Its not what I believe, I keep the pressure on them(jws) look at there explanation of the risen Christ' body:
In order to convince Thomas of who He was, He used a body with wound holes. "Live forever" page 145
This is one of the funniest things they've ever said.
Picture Christ hovering around looking for a body with the same wounds holes as not give away the secret. Was this body lying in a heap, or did Christ rob the grave.
Good stuff.
There so much more to work with than the trinity.
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FairMind
Picture Christ hovering around looking for a body with the same wounds holes as not give away the secret. Was this body lying in a heap, or did Christ rob the grave
I don’t think that’s the idea. The WTS is saying that Jesus appeared to Thomas in a body he manifested himself, not one he found laying around. This is plausible since there are numerous instances mentioned in the Bible of the angels doing the same thing. It also makes sense in light of Jesus’ comment that “Flesh and Blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom” and Jesus’ subsequent inheritance of that kingdom. Also there is Paul’s statement about Jesus being put to death in the flesh and raised to life as a spirit.
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SallySue
We are created in the likeness of God. We are body, soul, and spirit.
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: becasue many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is the spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now alreaady is it in the world.
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Shining One
John 1.14-15 :The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, `He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'"
(The Word became flesh......sounds like a man to me.)
John 1.1 :In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
(Sounds like deity to me.)
John 20:19-31 :On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
(Again, Jesus is a man. One of the reasons that John wrote the gospel was to counter heretics like the Ebionites and the Doceitans. One taught that Jesus was not truly a man but only 'appeared' to be flesh, the other taught that Jesus was a mere man and not God.)
Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
(Flesh and blood man and God incarnate)
Let's go to Luke 24:36-44 now (Another link in the chain of Biblical interpretation that shows the foolish nature of Watchtower doctrine.):
While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet.And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?"
They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence. He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
Jesus Deity is claimed by scripture!
John 9.35-38
Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" "Who is he, sir?" the man asked. "Tell me so that I may believe in him." Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you." Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him. (The Watchtower uses 'obeisance' here to obscure the deity claim to Jesus by scripture.)
John 8.52-59
52. At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death. 53. Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?" 54. Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55. Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." 57. "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" 58. "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
(The words spoken "Eigo Eime", means "I exist" and are the greek form of the hebrew words in Exodus 3.14 "hayah". This is why the Watchtower intentionally mistranslates the original. They have to avoid the deity claim by Christ to fit their own axioms.)
Luke 1.1-4: Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
John 21: 24. This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true. 25. Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
(Telling statements by Luke and John.)
The 'tinity' means 'tri-unity' and it is a theological term that came about when heretics attempted to dispute that which had been evident to the Apostles and the original disciples: God has revealed Himself in three persons, who each fullfil a unique role in the life of the believer, yet work in concert to bring about man's salvation.
Rex -
mustang
ROFLMAO @ Dilaceratus
Mustang
PS: Don't forget that he was "counting time".
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Tyre
CMIIW
if the focus on the bodily of Jesus, there are two options :
1. if the body of Jesus was different with the body when Jesus was alive, it would be called Re-Incarnation.
2. if the body of Jesus was the same with the body when Jesus was alive, it would be called Resurrection.
Which one in the mind of JWs ? Re-Incarnation or Resurrection ? did JWs believe in Re-incarnations?
When I look into the Bible, every Resurrection was revering to the Physical Bodies (Remember Lazarus and Tabitha's Story).
Every JWs believe that after the Big Armageddon they will be resurrected with Same Body (Physical Body) then It will be contradited with 1 John 3: 2 and Phi 3:21 which is stated that "We shall be like Him". because the body of Jesus risen as a Spirit being/Angel being (Michael the Archangel).
Tyre
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M.J.
http://www.biblicalanswers.net/trinity.html
...Imagine that Adam and Eve had remained sinless and had a child named Cain. Suppose we could ask Cain 'Who is your boss (or head)?' Cain would probably reason that since Eve was in perfect submission and one flesh with Adam, both his parents were his boss. He would say 'My boss is Adam and Eve.' If we asked 'Then how many bosses do you have?' He would reason that since Adam and Eve were ONE flesh, the authority was 'one', so he would say 'One boss.' But since Adam and Eve were two persons, does this not mean there were two bosses, a 'big' boss and a 'little' boss? No, for Adam and Eve were to be in perfect unity with perfect communication, acting as one entity with one decision-maker, one will. No, there was only one boss, the two persons together named "Adam" (or "Man"). They could not be two bosses for they were "no longer two."
Next suppose we asked Eve. 'Do you have a boss?' She would reason that since she was in perfect submission, and Adam was her head, she would say 'Yes' she had a boss, Adam. Then how many human bosses are there in the Garden of Eden, one or two? The answer is 'one'. Yet if Eve is a boss and she has a boss, does this not mean one plus one are two bosses? No, if Eve were not ONE flesh with Adam, if she acted on her own initiative, then there would be two bosses and poor Cain would get confused about whom to obey. However, Eve was ONE flesh with her head, Adam and was not to act on her own initiative. So rather than viewing this as 'one boss plus one boss,' we should view it as 'one boss times one completely submissive boss' equals one boss.
Further, just because Eve was to be submissive, this does not mean she was inferior. She was not a monkey nor was she to be a separate independent human. She was to be honored just as Adam (Exodus 20:12). Eve had the same nature as her head, Adam. She was not more or less human than him. She was made from Adam's rib so must have had the same genetic nature. He was the male gender and she was the female gender of the same humanity. But they each had a different role. Eve was a distinct person from Adam but they were not to be viewed as being separated, for they were "no longer two."
The same is true for the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They are all Deity. They have the same essential attributes of immortality, having the authority to judge and give life, they all are credited with making the universe, their glory is one. Although the Son is submissive, he is to be honored just as much as the Father (John 5:23). However, they are all distinct persons. Generally we do not say they are 'separate' since the Father was always with the Son (John 8:29; 14:10; 16:32) except on one occasion when the Holy Father separated from the Son who bore all the sins of all mankind, living and dead (Matthew 27:46). When Yahweh, the One True God, spoke in the Old Testament, he usually spoke for "us," the three persons of the Trinity (Isaiah 6:1-10 Yahweh; John 12:36-43 Son; Acts 28:25-27 Holy Spirit). At times the name "Yahweh" distinguishes the Father from the Son (Psalm 110:1) but at other times Jesus has the name of Yahweh (John 17:6,11,12). Each person has a different role or function in the universe. One person, the Father, is the source of all authority and decisions, the Son is the perfect agent or servant (Acts 4:27) who carries out the one will better than any angel could.
This explains why Jesus does not know those things that are reserved for the Father to decide, for he must first learn of those decisions from the Father (Matthew 20:21-23; Mark 13:32; John 6:38; 7:16; 8:26,28,29,40,42; 12:49,50; 14:10,24,31; Acts 1:7). It explains why Jesus is eternally submissive to his Father as his head (1 Corinthians 11:3; 15:28; John 5:19,20; 15:10; 1 Peter 2:23). It explains how the Father is greater than Jesus (John 14:28) yet they are still one (John 10:30). Just as Eve was a boss and yet also had a boss, Jesus is called God (Isaiah 9:6; John 20:28) and yet he has a God (Hebrews 1:9; Ephesians 1:17; John 20:17; Revelation 3:12). Likewise, just as Adam and Eve were one flesh and were to behave as one unit and thus there was only one boss in the garden, in heaven there is just one authority, one God.