The 144,000 and the Great Crowd of Revelation

by Leolaia 66 Replies latest watchtower bible

nowuask

What a brain crusher. Have to go over this one with a print out..
Leolaia

To respond to some of the questions...
I have to ask this though, was there anytime throughout Jesus' ministry, where he held out the hope of living forever on earth? It seems the only hope at the time was to go to heaven. What if I don't want to go to heaven, but just want to stay a Christian?
truthseeker....In the gospels, one encounters many statements about Christians attaining a heavenly reward, or entering "kingdom of heaven", or being gathered into heaven (cf. Matthew 5:3, 10, 12, 20, 6:19-20, 7:21, 8:11, 19:21; Mark 13:27; Luke 6:23, 12:33, 18:22; John 14:2-3, 17:24). There are other statements about going to the "bosom of Abraham" or "Paradise" immediately at death (cf. Luke 16:22-23, 23:43), just as we find in Josephus or Paul (cf. 2 Corinthians 5; compare 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 about "Paradise" being in "third heaven"). There should be distinction however between heaven as a place of repose before the resurrection (in one's intermediate state) and heaven as a place of eternal repose and reward. The latter notion is closer to the Platonic and proto-gnostic belief of the immortal soul. It is not always possible to distinguish between the two, although Luke 16 probably pertains more to the former and John likely pertains more to the latter. The distinction is important however since the earth could well the sphere in which the resurrection occurs. There were different Jewish ideas about the resurrection (including whether the resurrected live on earth or in heaven) and the gospels themselves were not all clear on this. However, since the synoptics expected a fairly immediate eschaton in the lifetime of those who heard Jesus (cf. Matthew 10:23, 16:28, 24:34), it does not seem likely that a brief intermediate existence for the Christians who happened to die before the parousia is what is in mind. The description of the resurrected as "like the angels in heaven" in Matthew 22:30 and Mark 12:25 also is suggestive of a heavenly angelic existence (cf. 1QH 3:21-22).
Revelation itself is dependent on Jewish apocalyptic tradition that claims that the heavenly Paradise (the Garden of Eden that was preserved in heaven before the Flood) would be restored on earth (cf. 4 Ezra 7; 2 Baruch 4, 29; Testament of Levi 18; see also the Christian chiliast tradition in Papias, Irenaeus, Cerinthus, etc.) -- such that the regathered Israel, ruled by her messianic king, would hold sway over the nations and bring blessings to the whole earth and God himself (and his angels) would dwell again with man. The descent of heavenly New Jerusalem and God's throne to earth in ch. 21 thus represents a blurring of the difference between earth and heaven. Bear in mind that in Revelation (as in 2 Peter 3, and numerous other apocalyptic writings), the present "earth" and "heaven" had been destroyed in the eschaton; it is a "new earth" that has been united with heavenly Paradise. Chiliasm, moreover, was more of a "fringe" belief in the early church, popular mostly in Phyrgia and Lydia in Asia Minor (where Revelation originally circulated, where Cerinthus lived, where Papias of Hierapolis lived, where Irenaeus was born, etc.)
Hellrider...Perhaps I should, Ma'am.
Could you explain the difference between "deceased individuals" and "living resurrected individuals"? Would the latter be defined as those individuals (theoretically) taken to heaven in a "rapture"-like process?
Ingenuous...The dead souls (psukhas) underneath the altar in ch. 6 are in postmortem intermediate state between death and resurrection because they have not yet had their deaths avenged and in ch. 19-20 the first resurrection occurs once the Dragon has been interred in the Abyss. Those martyred after them also join them in heaven; those who endured the "great tribulation" are assembled "in the sanctuary". This is what I meant by "deceased individuals" in heaven. All these are subsequently raised to life in the "first resurrection" ("I saw the souls of all who had been beheaded for having witnessed for Jesus and ... who refused to worship the Beast ... these came to life", 20:4). I do not mean any "rapture-like" process in the "first resurrection". But since the text in ch. 7 is unclear as to whether the assembled "great crowd" are these souls before or after the resurrection, I leave the question open.
The explanation of the relationship between the 144,000 and the "great crowd" makes a lot of sense and, as you said, wouldn't leave much (if any) room for the understanding that one is a heavenly group while the other is earthly. But, do chapters 20 and 21 leave open the possibility of a "third group on earth", namely, those resurrected and whose names were found in the "Book of Life"? (20:12,15) I'd be interested in your analysis of 20 & 21, especially since I'm confused by 20:3-9.
Those who are raised in the "first resurrection" are "the souls of all who had been beheaded for having witnessed for Jesus ... those who refused to worship the Beast or his statue and would not have the brand-mark on their foreheads or hands" (20:4). The resurrected are all those who died in the "great tribulation", and those martyred beforehand (cf. ch. 6), and they all had refused the Beast's mark. According to 13:15-17, all those who refused to worship the Beast or refused the Beast's mark was "put to death". This does not leave any group still living by the time of the "first resurrection" since everyone who rejected the Beast's mark was killed off by the Beast and everyone who accepted it was executed by God and his angels (14:9-11). And this makes sense because people who haven't died are not resurrected and only those in the "first resurrection" are those who reign with Christ and serve as priests of God. So those in the "first resurrection" do not constitute a "third group", they are the same people as those who were martyred by the Beast. The second group, those who bore the "mark of the Beast" (and "the rest of the dead") are raised in the "second resurrection" (20:5, 11-15).
These last three chapters of Revelation are strikingly like ch. 7 of 4 Ezra which contains many of the same motifs, tho not necessarily in the same order:
"For behold, the time will come, when the signs which I have foretold to you will come to pass; the city which now is not seen shall appear [cf. New Jerusalem appearing in Revelation 21:2], and the land which now is hidden shall be disclosed. And everyone who has been delivered from the evils that I have foretold shall see my wonders. For my son the Messiah shall be revealed with those who are with him [cf. the christophany of the Lamb and "those with him" in Revelation 17:14, 19:11-16], and those who remain shall rejoice four hundred years [cf. the thousand-year reign of Revelation 20:4-6]. And after these years my son the Messiah shall die, and all who draw human breath [cf. the death of everyone in 14:9-10 and 19:15-21]. And the world shall be turned back to primeval silence for seven days [cf. the passing away of the first earth and heaven in Revelation 20:11, 21:1], as it was at the first beginnings; so that no one shall be left. And after seven days the world, which is not yet awake, shall be roused, and that which is corruptible shall perish. And the earth shall give up those who are asleep in it; and the chambers shall give up the souls which have been committed to them [cf. Revelation 20:13-14]. And the Most High shall be revealed on the seat of judgment [cf. the judgment of the dead in Revelation 20:14], and compassion shall pass away, and patience shall be withdrawn; but judgment alone shall remain, truth shall stand, and faithfulness shall grow strong. And recompense shall follow, and the reward shall be manifested; righteous deeds shall awake, and unrighteous deeds shall not sleep [cf. the judgment in Revelation 20:14]. Then the pit of torment shall appear and opposite it shall be the place of rest; and the furnace of Gehenna shall be disclosed and opposite it the Paradise of delight (cf. the lake of fire and the paradisical New Jerusalem, outside of which lie the wicked in Revelation 20:14-15, 21:1-8, 22:1-3, 14-15)." (4 Ezra 7:26-36).
Honesty....Thanks for the extra info, there is some good points in there. The connection with the Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkoth) and the Great Crowd is another important feature of the text; the "feast of the ingathering" (Exodus 23:16, Deuteronomy 16:13; Nehemiah 8:9-18) evokes the gathering of the full number of martyrs in ch. 6 and the description of the 144,000 as the "first-fruits for God" in 14:4, and the dwelling in "booths" (cf. Leviticus 23:43) relates to the Great Crowd living under God's "tent" in 7:15. Moreover, the festive connection between Sukkoth (15th-22nd day of the 7th month), Yom Kippur (10th day) and Trumpets (1st day), has an interesting parallel to the three parts of Revelation's plot: first, the angels blow their trumpets and cast God's judgment to the earth (= the Feast of Trumpets), then there is the great tribulation and God's people are martyred in the "blood of the Lamb" (= the Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur), and then full number of the martyrs are gathered in heaven and dwell with God (= Sukkoth).
RunningMan

Have you ever thought about compiling your stuff into a book? It wouldn't exactly be a linear story, but it would sure be a handy thing to brandish in the face of relatives who thoughtlessly quote linguistic or historical sources. Especially if it turns out to be heavy. Make sure it's heavy.
Leolaia

The book of Revelation is so open to interpretation, that who knows what was really intended?

Yes, that is a point I have acknowledged and of course, we don't and won't ever know what the author exactly intended. However I would like to emphasize the difference between what I was doing and the "interpretation" practiced by the WTS in the Revelation Climax book (or the Finished Mystery book, for that matter).
The Society's approach is virtually unconstrained. They can read whatever they want into the NT book. There is no principled methodology in assessing what the author probably meant. I have no such luxury. My analysis takes as its point of reference the motifs and structures in the text itself and these are interpreted against only (1) parallels in the text itself and developments in the narrative, (2) the OT sources from which the motifs are drawn, and (3) the usage of these same motifs and features within Jewish and Christian writings of the period. This steers the analysis to what was most likely intended by the author and how the book's early readers would have understood the symbols, and away from one's own arbitrary, modern reading of the text that may have nothing to do with how the book would have been understood at the time it was written. We will never know exactly what the author intended but our analysis would definitely be more faithful to literary and historical context of the book itself than if the book was read without these constraints in mind.
Indeed, much of the book makes perfect sense when its basic plot, literary structure, and historical/conceptual context is understood.... just as many of the concepts expressed in Daniel are as plain as day once the book's historical setting and conceptual framework is appreciated.
Hellrider

I had actually never read those verses since "back in the days", it`s so true that ex-JWs, when they leave, just "close the book", and never look at it again. It had never crossed my mind that "the great crowd" actually are in heaven, bowing before the throne of God, while the 144000 are on earth, and the angels of death and destruction have to be held back, till the fifth angel can put a mark on their foreheads.
One thing that has always puzzled me about JW-teachings, and I realised this pretty early on: There are some parts of the Bible they insist on interpreting quite literally, while there are other parts they insist on interpreting very symbolically! And there is no "system" of when you are supposed to interpret the Bible literally, and when you are supposed to interpret it symbolically! These verses in Revelation are interpreted by the Society very "symbolically", for example, Babylon is interpreted as being this ungodly worlds false religion (christianity), the 144000 are in the Bible referred to as members of the 12 Jewish tribes, but these tribes are interpreted "symbolically" as the reborn "Israel of the world", the covenant that has been now given to the FDS, the 144000 in JW-doctrine refer to people of all nations, because the "twelve tribes of Israel" are interpreted symbolically as referring to JWs (the new Israel, in a sense, although I have never seen them use that expression - maybe it would taste to much of evangelism for them). On the other hand, such Bible passages as Genesis are interpreted pretty much literally, the only part of it they don`t interpret literally, is the term "day", which in JW-docrtine is a 1000 years (in some places, like in Daniel), or 7000 years in Genesis.
The point is: The WTS has never given any logical reasons why some parts of the Bible are to be interpreted literally, and others symbolically. It just puzzles me.
(And I have to agree with someone above, you really should compile all your stuff into a manuscript, edit it, and send it to a publisher. You could call it "The religious doctrine of the Jehovahs Witnesses - a critical view" , or something like that )
Ingenuous

Leolaia - thanks for the response. So are the events in chapter 20 out of chronological order? 20:3 says the dragon is sealed in the abyss "that he might not misled the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended." 20:8 says Satan's subsequent release is to allow him to "mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth," with those mislead going on to 'advance over the breadth of the earth and encircle the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city.' (20:9) What happens during the "thousand years?" Are those in the "second resurrection" only raised for the purpose of then condemning them to the "second death?" And what are 21:1,3, talking about a "new earth" and "mankind", about? I apologize if I'm repeating things you've already answered, as I'm not as advanced as some here. I think the book idea is a good one - maybe an e-book?
Carmel

Pretty good feat gathering all those multitudes from "nations, races,,,,etc" considering the concept of nation as a political entity didn't even exist then. Old John was indeed gifted seer. Then maybe if I were to study Greek, I'd understand that someone arbitrarily chose the word "nation" . Could it have been a reference to all the other peoples of other religions?
carmel
Midget-Sasquatch

Expect some time before us mortals can begin to digest and respond.
I'll admit that when I first glanced over the threads and caught this one's title, I skipped over it, but later on, I noticed it was you who started it ,and I just had to see what you wrote. Reams of intertestamental and extracanonical writings are a sure sign that I'll have to devote alot of time but it's always payed off. Thank You very much for this 2for1 - covering this particular topic and the lesson on proper exegesis.
Leolaia
Thanks RunningMan, Hellrider, ezekiel3 for suggesting I should publish on this....I'll take the suggestion under advisement. One thing tho is that I'd have to learn to express myself without as much detail!
Ingenuous....You've put your finger on another classic problem with Revelation. As Aune puts it in his commentary, "The previous destruction of the hostile nations in Rev 19:11-21 has apparently been forgotten....It is difficult to reconcile the destruction inflicted on the nations described in 19:17-21 with the subsequent existence of nations at the four corners of the earth mentioned in 20:7-10, following the millennial reign of Christ referred to in 20:4-6" (pp. 1093, 1095).
When Revelation is read critically, doublets abound (cf. 14:13 = 19:9, 17:1 = 21:9, 17:1-3 = 21:9-10, 17:4 = 18:16, 18:3 = 18:8, 19:9-10 = 22:6-9, 21:6 = 22:18) and the second battle of the end in 20:7-10 is paralleled by the first battle of the end in 16:12-16 and 19:11-21. The present text has the appearance of a compromise between two apocalyptic scenarios, one in which the battle occurs prior to the Millennium and another in which the battle occurs after the Millennium. This duplication resembles the positing of two resurrections in the same chapter; nowhere else in the NT are two resurrections assumed (just one general resurrection). The reason for both of these duplications appears to be the insertion of a 1,000-year period into the eschatological scenario -- a period which also is nowhere attested in the OT, NT, and earlier apocalyptic texts....though the 400 years of 4 Ezra is a close analogue. Most other NT and apocalyptic sources posit a great theophany or christophany (= the "Day of Yahweh" of the OT, "Judgment Day" of the NT, the coming of the Son of Man and the parousia of Christ in the NT, etc), during which God or his divine agent executes the people of the earth and the resurrection occurs, where the dead are judged and sent to their eternal destinies. These events are mentioned in connected fashion: (1) in 1 Enoch 1:3-9, the judgment occurs with the theophany, (1) in Matthew 25:31-46, the judgment and punishment also occur with the christophany, (3) in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, the resurrection occurs with the christophany, (4) in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, the judgment and punishment occur with the christophany, (5) in 1 Corinthians 15:23, 51-53 the resurrection occurs with the christophany, and so forth. The insertion of a 1,000-year interval into this event would thus separate either the resurrection from the christophany or the resurrection from the judgment. The solution in Revelation is to posit a "first resurrection" so that a resurrection occurs close to the theophany and a "second resurrection" so that it occurs close to the judgment and punishment. Just as there are two resurrections on either side of the millenium, so there are two eschatological battles on either side of the millenium.
The second battle of the end occurs "when the thousand years are over" (20:7), and the second resurrection does not occur "until the thousand years are over" (v. 5). So the text permits a scenario in which the "nations" led by Gog and Magog are the "nations" executed at Armageddon that are raised back to life. But this interpretation creates new problems. These evildoers are again killed (v. 9), and then there is another resurrection mentioned in v. 12-13. So does v. 12-13 refer to the second resurrection (the majority opinion), or do they refer to a still later third resurrection of those killed in v. 9? A more likely explanation is that two scenarios are being combined here and they do not agree in all details. The pattern of the doublets indicate that an earlier version of the book concluded without chapters 20-22, and probably without the second half of ch. 19 (cf. 19:9-10 = 22:6-9, which is close to the end of the book). What is curious about the section of 19:11-22:3 is that it is heavily allusive to Ezekiel in ways the rest of Revelation is not:
Revelation 19:17-18 = Ezekiel 39:17
Revelation 19:21 = Ezekiel 39:20
Revelation 20:5 = Ezekiel 37:10
Revelation 20:4-6 = Ezekiel 37:21
Revelation 20:8 = Ezekiel 38:2-15
Revelation 20:9 = Ezekiel 38:22
Revelation 21:3 = Ezekiel 37:27
Revelation 21:10 = Ezekiel 40:2
Revelation 21:12-13 = Ezekiel 48:31-35
Revelation 21:15 = Ezekiel 40:5
Revelation 21:23 = Ezekiel 43:2
Revelation 22:2 = Ezekiel 47:12
Note the order of events in the scenario of Ezekiel: (1) first there is a revival of dry bones / the first resurrection (Ezekiel 37:10; Revelation 20:5), then (2) there is a restored kingdom / the reign of the holy ones for one thousand years (Ezekiel 37:21; Revelation 20:4), then (3) Gog of Magog battle the holy ones in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 38:2; Revelation 20:8), then (4) the birds gorge on the dead bodies (Ezekiel 39:4; Revelation 19:21), then (5) the prophet is taken up to a high mountain (Ezekiel 40:2; Revelation 21:10), and (6) sees the New Jerusalem with the river of life and healing leaves (Ezekiel 47:12; Revelation 22:2). The original OT conception utilized by the author of Revelation thus did not have a final eschatological battle that precedes the attack of Gog of Magog. This battle occurs after the land of Israel has been restored to Edenic conditions (cf. Ezekiel 36:25), and after the dry bones have been restored to life (cf. Ezekiel 37). The original pericope about the battle of Gog and Magog in Revelation 20:7-8 thus probably had no conception at all that the "nations of the earth" had earlier been wiped out in an eschatological battle. But when this updated version of Ezekiel 37-47 was combined with the rest of Revelation, the paradox you noted in your post was created. Note also that some details pertaining to the defeat of Gog of Magog in Ezekiel 38-39 are applied to the first battle of the end in ch. 19 (such as birds consuming the flesh of Gog of Magog's army) and others are applied to the second in ch. 20 (such as fire coming down from heaven).
Sorry if this response is too verbose....in short, the paradox is likely an oversight of the author (due to combining disparate sources), and the current contradictory narrative is probably an awkward harmonization of two eschatological scenarios. There is a lot of more evidence to go into this (including texts from the Ascension of Isaiah on the detaining of Belial), and other questions...such as, why the heck was Satan released from the Abyss in the first place (imho, because the oracles about Gog of Magog in Ezekiel still need to be fulfilled, and these oracles assume that such a war takes place after restored Israel has come into existence).
Leolaia

Here is the apocalyptic scenario of the Didache, from roughly the same time Revelation was written:
"Then shall appear the world-deceiver as a son of God and he shall do signs and wonders and the earth shall be betrayed into his hands and he shall do godless things that have not been done since the beginning of the age. Then human creation shall pass into the fire of testing and many shall be caused to stumble and be lost, but those who persevere in their faith shall be saved by the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of truth first the sign of extension in heaven next the sign of the trumpet call and third the resurrection of the dead. Then the world shall see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven and all the holy ones with him, on his royal throne, to judge the world-deceiver and to reward each according to his deeds. Then the evil shall go away into eternal punishment but the righteous shall enter into life eternal, inheriting those things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard and which has not arisen in the heart of man" (Didache 16:4-9; as reconstructed by Alan Garrow).
This is roughly parallel with Revelation: (1) The "world-deceiver" is analoguous to the Beast in Revelation, who performs miracles and wonders, (2) The "fire of testing" is analoguous to the great tribulation of Revelation, such that many will be deceived by the Beast and be lost while those who persevere will die but be "saved", (3) The trumpet call in Matthew and Paul (1 Corinthians, 1 Thessalonians) heralds the gathering of the elect and/or the resurrection, whereas Revelation has seven trumpets of woes, (4) The resurrection occurs but here it is only one resurrection, not the two of Revelation, (5) The world-deceiver is judged just as the Beast and the Dragon are punished in Revelation, (6) Then there is a division of humanity in judgment into those who inherit eternal life and those who perish in eternal punishment.
Compare with the scenario in the Ascension of Isaiah, also dating from the late first century or early second century:
"Beliar the great ruler, the king of this world, will descend, who has ruled it since it came into being; indeed he will descend from his firmament in the likeness of a man, a lawless king, the slayer of his mother: who himself even this king. He will persecute the plant which the twelve apostles of the Beloved have planted. Of the twelve, one will be delivered into his hands. This ruler in the form of that king will come and there will come with him all the powers of this world, and they will hearken unto him in all that he desires. And at his word the sun will rise at night and he will make the moon to appear at the sixth hour. And all that he has desired he will do in the world: he will do and speak like the Beloved and he will say: 'I am God and before me there has been none.' And all the people in the world will believe in him. And they will sacrifice to him and they will serve him saying: 'This is God and beside him there is no other'. ... And there will be the power of his miracles in every city and region. And he will set up his image before him in every city. And he shall hold sway three years and seven months and twenty-seven days. And many believers and saints ... few in those days will be left as his servants, while they flee from desert to desert, awaiting the coming of the Beloved. And after one thousand three hundred and thirty-two days the Lord will come with his angels and with the armies of the holy ones from the seventh heaven with the glory of the seventh heaven, and he will drag Beliar into Gehenna and also his armies. And he will give rest of the godly whom he shall find in the body in this world, and the sun will be ashamed....But the saints will come with the Lord with their garments which are now stored up on high in the seventh heaven: with the Lord they will come, whose spirits are clothed, they will descend and be present in the world, and he will strengthen those, who have been found in the body, together with the saints, in the garments of the saints, and the Lord will minister to those who have kept watch in this world. And afterwards they will turn themselves upward in their garments, and their body will be left in the world. Then the voice of the Beloved will in wrath rebuke the things of heaven and the things of earth ... and all things wherein Beliar manifested himself and acted openly in this world, and there will be a resurrection and a judgment in their midst in those days, and the Beloved will cause fire to go forth from him, and it will consume all the godless, and they will be as though they had not been created" (Ascension of Isaiah 4:2-18).
Here the Nero redivivus myth implicit in Revelation is here made explicit in the reference to this king as "the slayer of his mother". In Revelation, the Beast is the offspring or subordinate of the Dragon, whereas here the king (= the Beast) is Beliar himself. He does exactly the sorts of things described in Revelation, including performing signs and wonders, making blasphemous boasts, making people worship an image of itself, persecuting the faithful Christians, and having authority over "all the powers of the world". Then there is a christophany and the Lord drags Beliar into Gehenna just as Jesus Christ has Satan bound and thrown into the Abyss. But unlike the Devil in Revelation, Beliar is not set loose from his prison. There is no reason to....unlike the author of Revelation, the present writer has no interest in salvaging the scenario in Ezekiel involving an attack of restored eschatological Israel by Gog (= Satan) of Magog.

The 144,000 and the Great Crowd of Revelation

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