Pedophilia, slander, the process, culpability

by Marvin Shilmer 31 Replies latest jw friends

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    Hi again, SixofNine!

    Too often answering questions about JW life ends in "what does the Society say about it." There is a Talmud, a Watchtower one. There is also an oral law, in fact the WTS prefers its oral laws over its written Talmud.

    I don’t understand your point about each member needing to deal with issues on a personal basis. I agree with the statement, I just don’t see how it relates to what we have said between us. Can you explain. I would like to understand what you mean.

    MadApostate:

    You DID NOT ask me what legal civil wrong the WTS or its elders were guilty of IN THIS CASE. You asked me if I could enlighten "as to what "legally recognized" civil wrong the WTS could successfully be sued for?" I answered THAT question!

    In the Berry case whether the WTS can or will be successfully sued is, drumroll…. NOT YET DECIDED!

    The potential is there for a successful suit based upon inappropriate action performed by the WTS via its agents. Whether this will succeed I cannot say, and from what I see none of us can. None of us are privy to all the relevant and useable facts!

    As for it being a "given" that elders are agents of the WTS anytime they perform a duty required of a JW elder, it is true in those cases they are acting as WTS agents. But that is the whole question—were THOSE elders, under THOSE circumstances performing a duty REQUIRED of JW elders, or were they acting on their own as THEY thought they should act despite known WTS policy? You and I probably have our answer to that question, but how the court of NH will decide it is another story.

    In an employment setting supervisors are generally regarded as agents of the employer. What if a supervisor insisted on sex for promotion from a subordinate? This is called sexual harassment! Is the supervisor acting as a company agent then? If a company has formed and made known its strict policy against sexual harassment, and they take immediate remedial action if and when they hear of each incident of sexual harassment, then courts usually would agree the supervisor was acting on his or her own in that case and not as an agent for the company. So supervisors are not always acting as agents for the company just because they are exercising power in their position.

    I do not have the time to locate a case where successful suits were filed against the WTS for character assassination. I know these cases exist because a long time Bethel lawyer has told me of the cases over the years. It is not new. That mistakes were made is obvious, the WTS has settled in some cases! Other cases they fought and won. Just who made mistakes has differed over the years. Why do you think over the years the WTS has put so much emphasis on EXACTLY what wording elders should use in making judicial announcements, particularly in the last 20 years? Answer: they needed to make policy well known to the point of documenting it with each congregation for the very purpose of distancing the WTS from elders who say too much during the announcements. Just within the last year or two elders received a detailed letter giving EXACT wording for several types of announcements where character assassination had been a problem. Do you think the WTS makes this crap up just for the heck of it? The reason is they have been sued, and it cost them!

    As for truth being an absolute defense in a case of accused slander, I have news for you: the burden of proof falls on the one doing the talking, not the one being talked about. Truth is only a defense if the one talking can prove what they are saying! In cases where a single witness is the ONLY evidence outcomes becomes questionable because they are not always believed. If they are not believe, even if what they say is true, then they have no defense. So truth is not always a defense in a court of law. Truth is only a defense if you can prove it. If you can’t prove it, even though it might be true, the one talked about need not say a word in order to prevail.

  • Maximus
    Maximus

    Clearly it sometimes serves the interests of the Legal department to see that policy is quite fuzzy, such as that presently on blood. Church policy that is not perceived/understood by parishioners then becomes individualistic and not communal, and that makes for reduced liability, right?

    *** w99 6/1 15 Appreciating the "Gifts in Men" ***
    These “gifts in men” do not seek to control the lives or faith of their fellow worshipers. Paul, although having apostolic authority, humbly told the Corinthians: “Not that we are the masters over your faith, but we are fellow workers for your joy, for it is by your faith that you are standing.” (2 Corinthians 1:24) Paul did not wish to control the faith and way of life of his brothers.

    If this is "food at the proper time," how can the faithful slave GB square this this teaching with their own behavior? Are they simply less humble than the apostle Paul? Have more authority collectively?

    Leave this as purely rhetorical or you may wish to respond.

    Max

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    I don’t understand your point about each member needing to deal with issues on a personal basis. I agree with the statement, I just don’t see how it relates to what we have said between us. Can you explain.

    It's really just an aside to your main point. They have this "loophole" to allow individuals to "narc" as it were, to the elders, and, fortunately for WT corp., the authorities, but the people in the congregational community, the people who have to live with the offending parties, aren't allowed to even use biblical principles in deciding how to deal with potentially dangerous people.

    edited to add: By "biblical principles" I mean those principles governing how Christians will treat fellow members who engage in sin. W/o knowledge of the sin, they can't apply the Bible's counsel. Worse yet, they can't protect their children.

    As I think I have mentioned to you, I'm no fan of the Bible anymore, but for those who are, it is a real shame when the application of the bible is decided upon by the small minds of isolated committee members, rather than by the hearts of individuals.

  • MadApostate
    MadApostate

    "You DID NOT ask me what legal civil wrong the WTS or its elders were guilty of IN THIS CASE. You asked me if I could enlighten "as to what "legally recognized" civil wrong the WTS could successfully be sued for?" I answered THAT question!"

    MARVIN: Your whole "agency" spiel was with regard to a sexual abuse lawsuit scenario, thus my question was obviously directed toward that scenario. Why would I ask you to tell me just ANY situation the WTS could be successfully sued.

    "In the Berry case whether the WTS can or will be successfully sued is, drumroll?. NOT YET DECIDED!"

    OBVIOUSLY!!!

    "As for it being a "given" that elders are agents of the WTS anytime they perform a duty required of a JW elder, it is true in those cases they are acting as WTS agents. But that is the whole question?were THOSE elders, under THOSE circumstances performing a duty REQUIRED of JW elders, or were they acting on their own as THEY thought they should act despite known WTS policy? You and I probably have our answer to that question, but how the court of NH will decide it is another story.

    MARVIN: Accordingly to your train of thought, anytime an "agent" acts outside the boundaries of their designated authority, they are not an agent. That is not true. You obviously did not take my suggestion to read up on "apparent agency". Why do you think the law permits a "principal" to sue their "agent"? Because the "agent" acted outside the bonds of authority, and the "principal" was held vicariously liable for the acts.

    "In an employment setting supervisors are generally regarded as agents of the employer. What if a supervisor insisted on sex for promotion from a subordinate? This is called sexual harassment! Is the supervisor acting as a company agent then? If a company has formed and made known its strict policy against sexual harassment, and they take immediate remedial action if and when they hear of each incident of sexual harassment, then courts usually would agree the supervisor was acting on his or her own in that case and not as an agent for the company. So supervisors are not always acting as agents for the company just because they are exercising power in their position."

    MARVIN: Just how do you think employers are held liable when one of their employees does exactly what you have outlined. Sorry but you are completely wrong!

    "Why do you think over the years the WTS has put so much emphasis on EXACTLY what wording elders should use in making judicial announcements, particularly in the last 20 years? Answer: they needed to make policy well known to the point of documenting it with each congregation for the very purpose of distancing the WTS from elders who say too much during the announcements. Just within the last year or two elders received a detailed letter giving EXACT wording for several types of announcements where character assassination had been a problem. Do you think the WTS makes this crap up just for the heck of it?
    The reason is they have been sued, and it cost them!"

    MARVIN: WRONG AGAIN.

    As for truth being an absolute defense in a case of accused slander, I have news for you: the burden of proof falls on the one doing the talking, not the one being talked about.

    MARVIN: NO SHIT!!!

    Truth is only a defense if the one talking can prove what they are saying!

    MARVIN: NO SHIT, AGAIN!!!

    In cases where a single witness is the ONLY evidence outcomes becomes questionable because they are not always believed. If they are not believe, even if what they say is true, then they have no defense. So truth is not always a defense in a court of law. Truth is only a defense if you can prove it. If you can?t prove it, even though it might be true, the one talked about need not say a word in order to prevail.

    MARVIN: TOO MUCH RAMBLING.
    Obviously, the burden is on the speaker to prove what they said is true. And, obviously "defense" involves the ability to prove your defense.

    The congs have been instructed not to announce "reasons" for discipline because that opens te door for a slander lawsuit in every occasion, whether the spoken words are true or not. The WTS just doesn't want to encounter a lawsuit every time such an announcementis made.

    I researched this topic a couple years back, and I recall that there were only one or two incidents which involved legal action. You've blown such out of proportion.

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer
    Just how do you think employers are held liable when one of their employees does exactly what you have outlined. Sorry but you are completely wrong!

    For MadApostate:

    Re: Supervisors acting within the scope of their employment (agents for their employer) and sexual harassment:

    While finding that the supervisors' conduct was clearly sexual harassment, the court of appeals reversed the district court's finding of liability on the part of the employer. Why? The supervisors were not acting within the scope of their employment when they engaged in the harassment – and the employer had no actual knowledge of the conduct. The lifeguard then filed an appeal with the U. S. Supreme Court.

    [Supreme] Court Ruling

    Because the employer had failed to provide an effective sexual harassment policy or take corrective action to eliminate the harassing conduct, the Court found the employer liable for the sexual harassment that had occurred. Faragher v. City of Boca Raton, No. 97-282, U.S. Sup. Ct., 1998 WL 336322.

    Ref: Powers, Kinder & Keeney's, Rhode Island Employment Law Letter, EMPLOYER LIABILITY—Sexual harassment noose tightens for employers, August 1998: Vol. 3, No. 7

    In the Faragher v. City of Boca Raton, Faragher ultimately prevailed. This resulted precisely because of what I have said on this thread: the defendant did not provide an effective policy or take corrective action to eliminate SPECIFIC conduct in a SPECIFIC case. For THAT REASON the supervisor could not be argued to have been acting on his own when the DEFAULT was that he acted as an agent for his employer! If this employer HAD initiated effective policy and ACTED accordingly, then a defense existed based on a supervisor acting outside his or her scope of employment, as an agent for the employer.

    Get your facts straight.

    I won’t waste anymore time on your nonsense. Blabber all you want.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    : I won’t waste anymore time on your nonsense. Blabber all you want.

    I think everyone should ignore this WT Legal Troll. Let them stew in their own juice.

    AlanF

  • MadApostate
    MadApostate

    Marvin: I'm going to keep this nice. You would be better served reading treatises on legal principles, rather than trying to interpret court opinions.

    AlanF: OK, Bigmouth. Put up or shut up!!! Are you willing to wager $10,000 that I am a WTS-troll? I need the money!!!

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    : OK, Bigmouth. Put up or shut up!!! Are you willing to wager $10,000 that I am a WTS-troll? I need the money!!!

    I ain't a bettin' man; I like to have fun with my money.

    Tell you what, you Legalistic fuckface: post your telephone number and I'll call you at a time of your choosing, sometime between 7:00 p.m. and 11:00 p.m. MDT. And if you're afraid of all those big, bad nasty wasps out there on the Internest, my email address is open. If you won't do it, then everyone will see that I'm right.

    Actually I'm enjoying this, because you Legal Department excuses-for-human-beings have probably fucked up the Society more than any other group of idiots. When you're out on your own in a short while, you'll have only yourselves to blame.

    AlanF

  • MadApostate
    MadApostate

    AlanF:

    As I posted soon after I started posting here (only about 16 days ago), I am NOT OUT YET, due to family considerations. And the last person I would give personal info to would be a fool like you.

    However, BIGMOUTH, if you are willing to send $10,000 cash to a XJW we both trust and agree on, I'll travel there, prove I'm not a "troll" and happily collect your ten grand.

    NOW, BIGMOUTH, since you like to GRANDSTAND for your groupies, let's see you actually back up your big mouth for once with something that counts other than your bad breathe.

    Besides, I need the money. The only way I'll get it is to prove I'm who I say I am. And some bigshot corporate computer geek like yourself has lots of money, and could afford to help out a fellow "anti-JW" who has fell on hard times.

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer
    I'm going to keep this nice. You would be better served reading treatises on legal principles, rather than trying to interpret court opinions.

    Good day, MadApostate.

    I see on top of everything else, you cannot read. Or else you don’t take time to read what you should. The material I presented—that speaks for itself—IS a treatise on a legal principle. The conclusion is not my own interpretation. I have only offered an epitome of a qualified attorney’s interpretation.

    I suggest you check the reference and read the full text, something you must surely have access to in light of your extensive legalese resources and acquired MadExpertise.

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