romans 6 vs 9

by stillajwexelder 28 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    (Romans 6:8-11) 8 Moreover, if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. 9 For we know that Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is master over him no more. 10 For [the death] that he died, he died with reference to sin once for all time; but [the life] that he lives, he lives with reference to God. 11 Likewise also YOU: reckon yourselves to be dead indeed with reference to sin but living with reference to God by Christ Jesus.

    If Christ is God - how could death have had mastery at anytime over the sovereign of the universe?

  • Oroborus21
    Oroborus21

    excellent point BUT i think it is folly to rely upon any single scripture, group or scattering of scriptures to determine the truth of something like the nature of God or the relationship between the Father and the Son. I think the only useful approach is to step back and take a look at the Big Picture.

    For me, I want things to make sense and the notion that the Father and the Son are the same or that the Holy Spirit is an individual entity/person doesn't make sense. The Trinity doesn't make sense to me.

    Others are more comfortable with "mystery" and don't require a logical explanation of the Trinity, they just believe and have faith.

    -Eduardo

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    >(Romans 6:8-11) Moreover, if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is master over him no more. For [the death] that he died, he died with reference to sin once for all time; but [the life] that he lives, he lives with reference to God. Likewise also YOU: reckon yourselves to be dead indeed with reference to sin but living with reference to God by Christ Jesus.
    If Christ is God - how could death have had mastery at anytime over the sovereign of the universe?

    When are you guys (JW) gonna get the point on Jesus nature and Paul's use of metaphors? There is also this supreme point related to His dual/divine nature: Jesus endured the wrath of God for ALL SIN, past, present and future. God died for our sins, he allowed for the potential for evil and HE TOOK THE HIT! He was dead, he was resurrected: that is the gospel.
    Rex

  • heathen
    heathen

    I believe that jesus was promoted to God . Not that he was litterally God almighty in human flesh .He was exalted over all creation after he was resurrected . Isaiah 9:6 refers to the messiah as Mighty God so the watchtower is wrong in saying that the bible does not call him God .They don't seem to have a problem with "god " it's just God with a capital G that they have a problem with . The apostle Thomas is even recorded in the new testament as calling him my lord and my God on seeing him(john 20:28) . The WTBTS says that worshiping angels is a sin so if they say jesus is just an angel then they are sining . It is clear that jesus receives worship in connection with the alimighty God .By praying in his name he is getting worshiped whether the WTBTS likes it or not .

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    "His Holiness Christ said: "The Father is in me." This we must understand through logical and scientific evidences, for if religious principles do not accord with science and reason, they do not inspire the heart with confidence and assurance.

    It is said that once John of Chrysostom was walking along the seashore thinking over the question of the trinity and trying to reconcile it with finite reason; his attention was attracted to a boy sitting on the shore putting water into a cup. Approaching him, he said, "My child, what art thou doing?" "I am trying to put the sea into this cup," was the answer. "How foolish art thou," said John, "in trying to do the impossible." The child replied, "Thy work is stranger than mine, for thou art laboring to bring within the grasp of human intellect the conception of the trinity."

    Let us, free from past tradition, investigate the reality of this matter. What is the meaning of the father and the son?

    This fatherhood and sonship are allegorical and symbolical. The Messianic reality is like unto a mirror through which the sun of divinity has become resplendent. If this mirror expresses "The light is in me" - it is sincere in its claim; therefore Jesus was truthful when he said, "The Father is in me."

    The sun in the sky and the sun in the mirror are one, are they not? - and yet we see there are apparently two suns.

    The Jews were expecting the coming of the Messiah, lamenting day and night, saying: "O God, send to us our deliverer!" But as they walked in the path of dogmas, rather than reality, when the Messiah appeared they denied him. Had they been investigators of reality, they would not have crucified - but would have recognized him instantly.

    (Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 152)

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    Thanks for the quote, Carmel. Let me ask you this: do you think the Baha himself considered his own claims in light of John 14.6? You seem to have a Universalistic approach to faith. The problem is that you cannot reconcile Universalism with other faiths that have a prophet or savior that claims divine authority. There is no truth to build upon in Universalism. Even naturalism has foundational beliefs but Universalism is an exercise in futility. It promotes the New Age corruption and the disintegration of western civilization. They will not put up with it, nor do they have the decency and compassion of Christianity. What compassion, some might ask? The fact that voices speaking blasphemies is tolerated (in our civilization) and you have your choice of belief or non-belief, that inalienable right granted by Divine Christian decree. Our country was founded by Christians and Deists, yet the corruption I speak of gnaws away at that very foundatioN.
    I've never seen any riots and death because someone claimed a Bible got flushed down a commode. When Islam arrives in force the New Agers and atheists are going to be dispatched quickly.

    Rex

  • lowly one
    lowly one

    .

    This might sound kinda obvious but, aah, the idea of the trinty and the scriptual answer given to thwart it, are both teachings of men.

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    Stilla,

    Death was mastery over him at his crucifixion.

    Cheers, ozzie

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    precisely ossie - over christ but impossible to have mastery over the God of the universe QED Christ is not God

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Xref Phil 2 (esp. v8)

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