Catholics are right if the Trinity is right

stillajwexelder

If Jesus is God then Mary is the Mother of God so the Roman Catholics are correct

Midget-Sasquatch

Now what if Jesus were God, but came down only in the appearance of man, and not in the same fleshly materialistic body of the rest of us? The mortal Mary wouldn't be Mother of God in that case.

Triple A

but came down only in the appearance of man

Than he could not of been bodily resurrected and we would have no hope of being resurrected either.

Leolaia

From Ignatius of Antioch (AD 115-117), one of the earliest authors outside of the NT:

"There is one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, God in man (en anthrópó theos), true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ephesians 7:2).

"For our God (ho theos hémón), Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God's plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit. He was born and was baptized in order that by his suffering he might cleanse the water" (Ephesians 18:2).

"Now the virginity of Mary and her giving birth were hidden from the ruler of this age....How then were they revealed to the ages? A star shone forth in heaven brighter than all the stars; its light was indescribable and its strangeness caused amazement. All the rest of the constellations, together with the sun and moon, formed a chorus around the star, yet the star itself far outshone them all ... when God appeared in human form (theou anthrópinós phaneroumenou) to bring the newness of eternal life, and what had been prepared by God began to take effect" (Ephesians 19:1-3).

"I glorify Jesus Christ, the God (ton theon) who made you wise, for I observed that you are established in an unshakeable faith, having been nailed to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ in both body and spirit, and firmly established in love by the blood of Christ, totally convinced with regard to our Lord that he is truly of the family of David with respect to human descent, Son of God with respect to the divine will and power, truly born of a virgin, baptized by John in order that all righteousness might be fulfilled in him" (Smyrnaeans 1:1).

Ignatius, BTW, was adamantly against the docetic view mentioned by MidgetSasquatch....insisting that Jesus was truly born by Mary while at the same time truly God.

Midget-Sasquatch

True, a docetic view would mean that God didn't die. Can God die? Hey! No wonder I scored much higher as a muslim than a catholic in that religion quiz.

Maybe too, the path to human salvation doesn't come from an actual propitiatory sacrifice, but from imitating that kind of self-sacrificing spirit? Why do you need a resurrection if one has an immortal soul? Oooops sorry! I'll stop now because I'm straying from the thread topic.

Leolaia Yeah, the orthodox did an effective job of writing against the docetic views to gain the majority mindshare. But I still find apocryphal stuff very interesting: like the Acts of John (where Jesus appeared to John at the Mount of Olives at the same time of the crucifixion for example), or even that bit in the Gospel of Peter having Jesus say "My Power, My Power, Why have you abandoned me?" - Which personally I find kinda cold though for a loving God to do....but again I digress. Dang its this late!? Ciao.

the_classicist

The Orthodox accept the first seven ecumenical councils too, both Nicaea I, which affirmed the belief that the Son is consubstantial with the Father, and Ephesus that condemned the Nestorian heresy and proclaimed the Blessed Virgin the Deipara or Theotokos.

Mind you there are other Orthodox, such as the Oriental Orthodox, who reject the Chalcedonian view of Christianity, but they are considered heretics by the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

the_classicist

True, a docetic view would mean that God didn't die. Can God die? Hey! No wonder I scored much higher as a muslim than a catholic in that religion quiz.

Well, in a sense the docetists would be right if monphysitism was true, but diphysitism was expressed in early Christianity and the epistles of Paul, but not fully formulated until the Council of Chalcedon.

In the incarnation, the second person of the Holy Trinity took flesh, yet the Godhead did not cease to exist, instead there were two natures bound by the hypostatic union.

Ingenuous

If Jesus was God, than his death upset the scales of justice, but in the other direction. Whereas before man was condemned to death via Adamic sin, the death of God would be an overcompensation as opposed to a ransom of equal exchange.

MerryMagdalene

If Jesus was God, than his death upset the scales of justice, but in the other direction. Whereas before man was condemned to death via Adamic sin, the death of God would be an overcompensation as opposed to a ransom of equal exchange.

Not if Genesis 3:22 can be taken to mean that Adam and Eve became gods... (Gen 3:22) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

~Merry

Robert_V_Frazier

"If Jesus was God, than his death upset the scales of justice, but in the other direction. Whereas before man was condemned to death via Adamic sin, the death of God would be an overcompensation as opposed to a ransom of equal exchange." I've never understood what the point of that argument is supposed to be. So God paid more than the full price for sin? So what? He chose to do so. On the other hand, one perfect man for the whole sinful human race is not an equal exchange, either. If the Watchtower were right about their view of the ransom being "corresponding" (that's not in the text, by the way), then Jesus saved Adam and the rest of us are still waiting for a ransom for each of us. Robert V Frazier

Catholics are right if the Trinity is right

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