TESTING the results of two different ways of thinking

by Terry 172 Replies latest jw friends

  • trevor
    trevor

    Terry

    On one of the threads you have running, you say:

    “Whatever problems were faced by the International Bible Students actually stemmed from the abrasive absolutism of their message.”

    Reading the words above I feel that some of the value of what you are saying, on this thread, is lost because of your “abrasive absolutism.” You state that:

    “Jehovah’s' Witnesses have that peculiar form of mysticism called the ANOINTED! The anointed are hardcore examples of mysticism.”

    In doing this, you link mysticism with an extreme example of abusive mysticism. This makes your point forcibly but at the same time, causes the reader to doubt your judgement. You have a message that you feel the need to share and I along with many others have commented on the high quality of your posts but you leave no room for what is yet unknown.You state:

    “the Deepak Chopras of the world give me a stomach ache.”

    I have read three of his books and found them interesting. He is a trained surgeon who opened a clinic to house terminally ill cancer patients. He astounded the medical profession by helping many patients to achieve remission and recover full health. His method? Teaching them to meditate and get in touch with that part of their mind that is responsible for producing cells in the body.

    Unlike the Watchtower Society he successfully demonstrated his method. He was not trying to predict the end of the world or claim to be chosen. He simply helped people to look a little deeper into themselves for the cause of their problem. His belief is that good heath is a natural state. I a person loses that state of health then there is a reason. The reason my be found to have deep rooted emotional cause. Modern Hypnotherapy approaches problems in this way.

    Caution towards mysticism is justified. The world is thwart with fraud and reminding people of the dangers of accepting unproven assertions is a good thing. But to lump Deepak Chopra, The Watchtower Society, and anything mystical together and then rubbish anything that is outside of your present sphere of understanding or experience, appears to be a case of ‘abrasive absolutism.’

    You have been badly shaken by discovering that what you were absolutely certain of as a Jehovah’s Witness was flawed. Unless you allow a little room for the genuineness of other peoples experiences and those you have yet to have, you risk being badly shaken again.

    I enjoy your posts and find them enlightening and challenging.

    Trevor

  • Terry
    Terry
    I have read three of his books and found them interesting. He is a trained surgeon who opened a clinic to house terminally ill cancer patients. He astounded the medical profession by helping many patients to achieve remission and recover full health. His method? Teaching them to meditate and get in touch with that part of their mind that is responsible for producing cells in the body.



    Unlike the Watchtower Society he successfully demonstrated his method. He was not trying to predict the end of the world or claim to be chosen. He simply helped people to look a little deeper into themselves for the cause of their problem. His belief is that good heath is a natural state. I a person loses that state of health then there is a reason. The reason my be found to have deep rooted emotional cause. Modern Hypnotherapy approaches problems in this way.



    It is okay with me for you to read Deepak Chopra. It is fine with me if you find him "astounding".

    Where we part company is when you assert he helped many patients achieve remission and recover full health by teaching them to meditate.

    Here is how my mind works:

    The bigger the claim the bigger the proof needed to substantiate the claim.

    I know that statistically among cancer patients there is what is known as "spontaneous remission" which nobody accounts for specifically. To attribute anything specific to spontaneous remission is to not play fair. It is a smokescreen or an "out" in pushing one's agenda.

    Futher, if you break down Chopra's instructions you will find you are grabbing at smoke. There is generally no "there" there other than an amorphous insubstanstiality. For me, it is typical Eastern mysticism which tells it essentially "everything is in your head".

    But, like I said---it is okay with me for you to enjoy him.

    I'd like to challenge you to tell me just three things that could be considered factual which Chopra offers that we could consider understandable data.

    Just three.

    Terry

    Chopra is a New Age guru. He is a former leader in the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's Transcendental Meditation program. Chopra promotes the Indian healing system known as ayurveda. Back To Top


    Deepak Chopra claims that "by consciously using our awareness, we can influence the way we age biologically. . . . You can tell your body not to age". He has reportedly made millions of dollars marketing such messages along with books, lectures, tapes, and consumables based on a "modern" version of an ancient Indian healing system (ayurvedic medicine).

    [...] Chopra claims that herbs prescribed in ayurvedic treatment "take the intelligence of the universe and match it with the intelligence of our own body."

    [...] Chopra's book Return of the Reishi promotes the idea that meditators can levitate. Chapter 13 describes his personal experience with "lifting off," which he calles "the first threshold in yogic flying": Source: Stephen Barrett, M.D., A Few Thoughts on Ayurvedic Mumbo-JumboOff-site Link at QuackWatch.org
    The above from e skeptic
  • talesin
    talesin

    Ugh, your way of speaking to me and others who disagree with you is just rude. You are no smarter than I, and your way of belittling other ways of thinking is distasteful to me. You leave no room for discussion or enlightenment. You speak with such certainty that it seems you believe you are a god. Dr. Chopra has helped many. To back up Trevor's post, he is not only a trained surgeon, he was the chief of surgery at one of Boston's largest hospitals before he went on his quest to research the ancient ways, and it was not until he spent years studying these ways that he began to see that we are not just 'material', but spiritual as well. He is not some airy-fairy wingnut. I have tried to get you to have a little respect for others' way of thinking, but your mind is closed. I think you would be well served by rereading Trevor's post and examining your perceptions of the world. Best of luck to you. tal

  • Golf
    Golf

    Talesin, well said, "You speak with such certainty that it seems you believe you are a god." Amen!


    Golf

  • Terry
    Terry

    You mean I have to AGREE WITH YOU or I'm rude? What do you call that? All I said was:

    But, like I said---it is okay with me for you to enjoy him.

    I'd like to challenge you to tell me just three things that could be considered factual which Chopra offers that we could consider understandable data.

    Just three.

    Terry

    And you consider that rude? Oy vey. T.

  • hmike
    hmike

    Terry, I would say the same thing for mystical/rational as I would for left brain/right brain, or anything similiar: there should be a balance; both should be working together. If we get too far off on one end or the other, we have an incomplete picture of our world and are limited in our ability to operate in it.

    I’d like to give you a couple of examples of how this mystical, or spiritual (as I prefer), element works in my life. Recently, I was looking for a new job, as the private-sector company I worked for was unstable. I put in an application with a local county government for an open position. My prayer to God was to place me in the right position according to His knowledge and will (the mystical element--entreating a supernatural entity for intervention and guidance). I was invited for five job interviews, each at different locations. Four of the interviews went well, I thought, and one in particular went extremely well--the panel seemed to ask all the “right” questions for me and I had all the right answers. For the fifth interview, I got caught in unexpectedly heavy traffic, and, even though I left myself plenty of time, arrived for the interview some 20 minutes late. I had called ahead to tell them I would be in late, so they waited for me, but, being the first interview of the day, that set them behind for everybody else. So that didn’t make a good impression to start with. Also, I didn’t feel I answered the questions particularly well, so I figured I could write that one off.

    Well, after a few days, I got only one offer--from the place where I interviewed well. I accepted the offer and reported for work with them. The person who was training me was familiar with all the departments and staff, and about the position I got, he said, “You died and went to heaven. This is the best place to work for.” About the place where I was late, he said, “Be GLAD you didn’t end up there.” Apparently, it’s an unpleasant place to work. So the mess-up may have kept me from going someplace I may not have wanted to be, and all the conditions were right for me to end up at apparently the best location. Now, I didn’t have control of any of this--the traffic, the members of the interview panels, or the questions they would ask--all of which factored into the end result. So, even if I had known all the inside information, and been optimally prepared, there were still factors over which I had no control that figured in the outcome. Logic, reason, and rationality could only go so far.

    Now I’ll give you another, more significant example. As a child, I was pretty much a loner--a social outcast. An only child born to older parents (mom,42, dad, 52), my mom was a recent European immigrant, and my dad was a loner for sure. There were very few kids in the neighborhood of widely-spaced yards. So I grew up reading a lot, inventing things, and playing roles in imaginary worlds, but had little social interaction outside of school, and it didn’t go particularly well in school for me socially. I entered adulthood without understanding what meaningful relationships were about. All my dating relationships ended with me being dumped, and understandably so. I wasn’t abusive--I just didn’t know how to properly relate. When I ruined a relationship with a young lady I cared very much for who was a Christian (I was too, by this time), I hit the bottom. It was only then that I called out to God to introduce me to someone of His choosing--I turned it all over to God (the mystical element again). No more than a month or so after this, I got into a deep conversation with a young woman whom I had talked to briefly in the past and hardly knew before this point. It was in this conversation I found out she was a dedicated Christian. Somehow I knew, with very few indicators, that she was God’s choice--she was the one. Over the next few months, while we were dating, I had opportunities to enter into relationships with other women. One woman, who was very attractive and I liked and had dated briefly before, expressed an interest in starting over with me. But I refrained from any relationships with any of them. Not only did I love the woman I was dating, but I was not going to do anything to jeopardize my relationship with God’s choice. The ultimate test came when the woman who was my first girlfriend, whom I had been in love with and dated off-and-on for several years came back into my life with the news that she had committed her life to Christ. For sure, it was very difficult—I loved both women and both were Christians, but from what I knew about my former girlfriend, and what I knew about the woman I was dating, and what I knew about myself, I stuck with my commitment to the one I believed was God’s choice, and said good-bye to my old love.

    Times with my new love weren’t always good, but I found out that she had also made a request of God similiar to mine. So, in spite of the difficulties we had, mainly because we were different in so many ways, we got married. Sometimes, married life was a struggle because of those differences, but one thing compelled us to stay together when others would have split--our mutual belief that we were God’s choice for one another. Early on, I realized, for my part, why she God’s choice, even though we were different in many ways. I was cerebral and unsociable, seeing little value in family; she was social and feelings-oriented, and came from a large, close family. I was an incomplete personality--lacking in many ways--and thereby limited in any good I could do for myself, for others, and for God. She, and the context of our relationship, forced me to look at myself and make adjustments. I moved towards wholeness. I came to see the value of people, rather than just the value of ideas. It was--and still is--hard for me, after 23 years of marriage, but it would have never happened otherwise. I had deficiencies, and I didn’t even know it, and reason and logic would have never shown it to me.

    Many are the plans in a man’s heart, but it is the LORD’s purpose that prevails. (Prov. 19:21)

    Computer dating services use compatibility--common interests--as a basis for matching. If I had done the logical, rational thing, I would have gotten together with someone with interests like mine. Sure, there would have been fewer conflicts, the relationship would have been more comfortable, and, in some ways, I may have even been happier, but the result is that I would have just become more of what I already was. I wouldn’t have branched out or grown without the challenges. God knew what I really needed, and I like to think that I’ve enhanced my wife’s life as no one else could have (she often tells me, “You’re strange”). Some would call things like this a “coincidence” and say “This is how the myth gets started: someone entreats a deity, good things happen, and the deity becomes a reality.” Well, if I was writing about a singular event, then I might agree. But when these kinds of things happen often during a lifetime, and there appears to be a pattern and a purpose, then I find the “coincidence explanation” a hard sell. And if anyone has a problem with me saying that I believe in the existence of God because He answers my prayers, they should consider that it comes from the same logic that says, “I don’t believe in God because He hasn’t answered my prayers.” Terry, from your posts, it looks like you think the Christian is part of some tyrannical, oppressive, repressive system, where people submit to dragging a ball and chain around in misery, afraid to think for themselves, all for some future pie-in-the-sky. You seem to consider the mystical element to be counterproductive. That may be the JW way, and the Mormon way, and it may be true for a part of the historical Christian church, and may even be true for some today, but it’s not that way for me, and I don’t know any Christians personally that it’s true for. Sure there’s sacrifice and restraint, but even atheists who want to quit smoking or lose weight understand about that, so it’s not unique to Christianity. And the Christian doesn’t do it all just for some future life--there’s benefit in the here and now, in this age, in this life. “I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.” (Jesus, John 10:10b) Mike

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek

    hmike:

    Some would call things like this a “coincidence” and say “This is how the myth gets started: someone entreats a deity, good things happen, and the deity becomes a reality.” Well, if I was writing about a singular event, then I might agree. But when these kinds of things happen often during a lifetime, and there appears to be a pattern and a purpose, then I find the “coincidence explanation” a hard sell.

    I don't see any coincidences in what you wrote above, only incidences. You were offered a job because you did well in the interview, and (possibly) missed out on another one because you were late. You have some reason to believe that the job you got is better than one of the ones you didn't get. You met a woman and decided she was God's choice for you, and as a result stayed with her. I can't help feeling that had you got a different job or a different woman you'd see them as proof of God's guiding hand.

    I was once offered a job but, due to a misunderstanding, the offer was retracted. Had I got the job my life would have been quite different. I wouldn't have met some of the people I count as my closest friends, including my girlfriend. I think I'm lucky to have ended up on this path, but had things worked out differently I would probably have ended up with different friends and a different girlfriend, and would be unable to imagine my life any other way. To see the hand of God in such random events is absurd.

  • Terry
    Terry
    I would say the same thing for mystical/rational as I would for left brain/right brain, or anything similiar: there should be a balance; both should be working together. If we get too far off on one end or the other, we have an incomplete picture of our world and are limited in our ability to operate in it.

    This assumes from the outset that both sides of this issue are equal in benefit/harm. It is an error to assume this. When you learned equations in Algebra the left side of the equation was by nature equal to the right side of the equation. You are extrapolating this naive view into your foundational argument of rational/mystical. You will destroy your conclusions as a result.

    In any compromise between food and poison, would you assert that just the right balance of poison to food would be dandy? I think death would be the referee on that one!

    Example #1 ...late to the job interview and got the better job as a result

    ??? Your interpretation of events is all we are really discussing here; not the truth about what lies behind events. Why? Because that starts out assuming there is always another meta-level of "meaning" behind everything. It is a presupposition. When you flip a coin and it turns out "heads" there is no meaning to it. If you flip that same coin to decide whether to marry somebody or not you imbue the coin flip AND THE RESULT with an artificial significance it, in itself, does not contain. It is your MIND playing this game of "meaning" here and nothing much else. Sorry, weak example.

    Example#2 The choice of mates

    For you to accurately rate the OUTCOME of three different choices in a realistic way you would have to have some way of experiencing the results of those choices in actuality. (Yes, ALL of them.) There is simply no way of being able to do this. You can assume life would be different (better/worse) IF you had made a different choice; but, you cannot actually experience the evidence of your choice by living with it UNLESS you could miraculously live three alternate lives simultaneously and compare the results! Ain't gonna happen, my friend. Life is a trade-off. We get what we get and hope to wise up along the way and apply what we learn from our errors to pack a little wisdom in our choices as we go.

    Once again, you are dealing with your INTERPRETATION of events and possible outcomes based on nothing much more than your desire to see these events a certain way fatalistically. You have an appetite for such thinking conditioned by a retreat from objectivity. It is a matter of habit and not much more than that. This doesn't make you stupid or wrong or anything that should be hospitalized. Heaven's no! I'll give you an example of what I mean about this:

    When I use to believe that the world was populated by invisible spirits (demons) I could get the crap scared out of me in a dark room easily. Any shadow, sound or anomaly would give me goose bumps and a pounding heart. I INTERPRETED ordinary events in a particular way; I filtered them through the supernatural-explanation sector of my brain and came out with "proof" there were demonic forces surrounding me. But, when I stopped believing in such things my fear of the dark vanished! It is very very hard for me to even be scared watching horror movies (which were my guilty pleasure for most of my life.) Events only have significance and meaning that WE PLACE ON THEM. That is what you are dealing with. See?

    Terry, from your posts, it looks like you think the Christian is part of some tyrannical, oppressive, repressive system, where people submit to dragging a ball and chain around in misery, afraid to think for themselves, all for some future pie-in-the-sky.You seem to consider the mystical element to be counterproductive. ; That may be the JW way, and the Mormon way, and it may be true for a part of the historical Christian church, and may even be true for some today, but it’s not that way for me, and I don’t know any Christians personally that it’s true for
    . ; Sure there’s sacrifice and restraint, but even atheists who want to quit smoking or lose weight understand about that, so it’s not unique to Christianity. ; And the Christian doesn’t do it all just for some future life--there’s benefit in the here and now, in this age, in this life. “I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.” (Jesus, John 10:10b)

    Christianity is a buffet. You have such a variety to choose from! You get what you pick. Some elements in some denominations are tyrannical, oppressive and repressive. People who want that in their life choose it. You wouldn't disagree with that.

    There is enough variety in the choices of Christian life you can pretty much find a slot which serves your mental inclinations. People who just don't want to think for themselves will find authoritarian Christianity dandy. People who like to look things up and come to their own conclusions can find a branch of Churchdom that allows that too. The fact that you are comfortable proves nothing more than that you found a way of matching your mindset with the agenda of an assembly of others.

    You miss my point, however!

    Christianity disables you. Yes, hear me out.

    1. Christianity tells you that you are born no good and actually worthy of death. Imagine that! A newborn infant, in this view, is born with the stain of Adamic sin and will die because of it.

    2.Christianity tells you that your own mind is not to be trusted! Your thinking is polluted by sin. Your self has no value and to possess an ego is to commit a crime against God. The solution is emptying your mind of autonomy and surrendering to the insidious process delicately called "the will of God" which is some variant of a creed or orthodoxy administered (for a fee and by control) in the hands of a mystical "other".

    3.Christianity gives you a false map of the universe populated by invisible persons! Anything goes because the supernatural is able to violate any of the laws of physics. When you play cards in this game it is deuces wild. Cause and effect can be reversed at will and you can seek a really thrilling mystical reason behind anything you observe happening colored by your expectation it has hidden meaning.

    4.Christianity keeps you busy SERVING invisible people and measuring every thought and action in accord with what this important invisible person likes and hates. It is like living with a manic depressive roomate who could go off on you at any time. You have to walk on eggshells and be carefull lest you bear the brunt of their illness! God is a two-edged sword of warm and loving father figure and frightening and vengeful destroyer. The Christian is nothing more than a heartbeat away from oblivion at God's whim.

    5.Christianity, having disabled your rational thinking, allows you to recreate life in a way that suits your wishful thinking, fantasy and mood to such and extent you are living in a dreamworld. When actual reality intrudes and pops this bubble of illusion, the Christian goes into fear and pleading. Prayers (a meaningless and time-wasting ritual) take the place of productive action and events suddenly must be reshaped into Cosmic Significance as End Times possibilities emerge! In other words, tragedy is always a battle between Satan and God and the over arching "logic" of events must be cast in this framework to be "understood".

    So, rather than live in such a state of being myself, I have taken the liberty of working dilligently to exorcise mystical thoughts from my mind.

    There cannot be any so-called BALANCE between rational thought which is reasonable, logical and factual in harmony with reality and mystical thinking which substitutes the unprovable assertions of authority figures for personal responsiblity.

    None.

    You can entertain yourself and sooth yourself by insisting such is the case; but, not me. I am not judging you. I am telling you my conclusions based on my life. When I gave up mystical thinking my life took on a focus it had been lacking and a clarity long absent. You are under no obligation to believe me. I would insist you arrive at any conclusion on your own effort and not by taking my word for it. That would, after all, be mystical!

  • hmike
    hmike

    Terry,

    Thanks for taking the time to reply.

    In any compromise between food and poison, would you assert that just the right balance of poison to food would be dandy? I think death would be the referee on that one!

    Actually, I would compare it more to insulin and sugar. Both are essential for life, but they must be in balance.

    I didn't mean for my examples to serve as any kind of proof. I realize subjective experiences and their interpretations are not verifiable.

    In my view, your Points #s 4 and 5 are inaccurate on the negative side, but our different experiences with this issue affect our understanding of it. I wanted to make you, and those who feel as you do, aware that there is another POV about this.

    Which brings me to another point: you say you're an agnostic, but you have definitive opinions about these issues, as if you've closed the door to other possibilities. That's not agnostic, is it?

  • hmike
    hmike

    Hi funkyderek,

    I understand what you're saying. It would be impossible for me to give you all the information here that would adequately explain why I see things this way--you'd have to do a Vulcan mind-meld. All I can say further is that this comes from what I understand about God from the Bible, and what I understand about myself.

    To add to my original post: One of the great things about being confident that you did things God's way is that you never need to worry about second-guessing yourself.

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