potter and the clay

peacefulpete

Given the successful completion of the mapping out the chimpanzee genome(New Scientist Breaking News - The chimpanzee genome is unveiled), i imagine in a few years some efforts will be made to use that information to attempt to create a human/chimp hybrid.

Let's fast forward a decade or two and we have succeeded in producing the first chimp hybrid with human mental abilities. How do we treat such a being? Does it have rights? If I were to apply the logic in the Bible, I would likely feel empowered to do what I want to this creature by rights of creatorship.

Rom 9:21 — Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

How's that for an ethics question?

AlmostAtheist

I was watching a show last night talking about early man's tool usage. They showed modern chimps using rocks to crack open nuts. The kid chimps watched the older chimps to learn how to do it. You could see them sort of playing around with it, banging one rock on another one, missing the nut, glancing it. The narrator said it can take 6 years for a chimp to learn to do this.

I wondered then just how far removed we are from chimps. And if we're not that far and if you remove the theological "man in the image of god" idea, what right do we have to impose our will on them even now, much less if we cook up a smarter one?

Would the rule of thumb be that when a creature could look at you and say, "I don't want to be your property anymore," then it must be allowed not to be?

Ethics. <shudder> Glad it's not my job!

Dave

A Paduan

i imagine in a few years some efforts will be made to use that information to attempt to create a human/chimp hybrid

I think that's a very vivid imagining

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Power over the clay isn't the same as power over the spirit

Midget-Sasquatch

A Paduan,

Its less far fetched than you might think. If you're saying its likely to fail because of the difference in chromosome numbers (humans 46 / chimps 48), I'd say that most of the time you'd be right. But it looks like human chromosome 2 was initially two chromosomes that somehow combined. If one were to do a little tinkering such that either one splits human chromosome 2 into the two again, or just fuse the two chimp analogues into one, the haploid numbers would match and gestation should proceed.

I don't know exactly why, but I think it would be freaky to do that. I'm less repelled by the idea of transgenic engineering to enhance human features like, sight, smell, strength etc though.

hibiscusfire

God is the potter and we are the clay

Hibiscusfire

tetrapod.sapien

midget,

nice explanation.

Dave,

damn. we have such crappy shows up here in canada. people from the states are always getting these cool shows on discovery etc. we have the canadian discovery channel, but it sucks compared to the ameican one, IMO.

pete,

thanks for that link.

ethically, not only am i all for the possibility (as it would really make people think about who/what we are), but i already think that animals and us are "equal" biologically in the sense that humans are no pinnacle of evolution. and since we're sapient, we should do our best to have as little impact on flora and fauna as "humanly possible". this includes any species that we may engineer. plus the difference between artificial selection and natural selection, is only one of degree, in genetic space.

i would not expect any literal bible types to treat a new species of ape any better than they already treat the great apes. if they do not want to see ourselves of apes, then they are not going think that a new species of sapient ape should have equal rights. this is really an ape-like way to think, LOL.

but ya, ethics man, crazy.

i love to think of the possibilities though. life is wild. computo ergo sum.

TS

Deputy Dog

Pete

In order to get credit for such a creation, you will have to do it from scratch. Lets see you create it out of nothing.

D Dog

tetrapod.sapien

i don't think pete or anyone else wants any "god credit", LOL.

anyways, genetics is information technology. bioengineering is hacking.

i used to wonder why a loving god would make us as executions of computer programs, and not blue print design. but i don't wonder anymore. it's pretty obvious, IMO.

TS

peacefulpete

Interestingly, leading Creationists like Philip E. Johnson argue that God in fact used a preexisting prototype hominid and tweaked it to create humans. But anyway for argument sake potters don't make the clay they mold either and yet their creation is theirs to do with as they choose. The work presently is to identify the very few differing sequences, so to suggest that in a few years we will be able to turn them on or off or splice in tiny human segments that are responsible for the minor differences in brain makeup is hardly a stretch. They are presently, and have been for 20 years, doing just that in other related species, an number are patented. The responses from those religiously inclined have been very disappointing. i want to challenge them and everyone to ask themselves what rights such a being would have. Does the fact that their sentience is the result of human invention give us the rights of patent use. Does the Bible's principle stand up to modern sensitivities?

Deputy Dog

TS

I would likely feel empowered to do what I want to this creature by rights of creatorship.

He said he wants "rights of creatorship" If that is the case, he will have to use his own matter.

D Dog

potter and the clay

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