Battle Royal.

Daunt

When I told my mom and dad that I did not believe in the truth, I was jumping into unknown territory. It has just never happened before. Now my parents are trying harder than ever to bring me back into the ranks. Their first distinguished attempt happened about 30 minutes ago. We were reading the first chapter of the Creator book.

Now I was already annoyed by the whole thing so from the beginning I just nodded and said intermittently, "ya", and "ok," to just get them to move on mostly. However, throughout the whole conversations, there were just too many illogical talk going on to stay quiet. They never really gave facts but they just explained how things have gotten worse; mostly about how when they were children they could leave the doors unlocked and it wasn’t all that bad as it is now. However, they talked about how in the modern world, kids are killing their parents and overall pestilence and starvation and overall badness is increasing. I remember a line from my dad at the Bible Study on Saturday vividly when he said, “The world is crumbling around them [when talking about humans in general].”

After discussing these things for about an hour my dad and I came to an ultimatum. We decided that I was going to get my evidence, and he was going to get his and we will discuss it in a week. The tone was nervous, somewhat hostile, yet very loving and I appreciated the talk with them. But their willingness for me to bring forth anything that might prove them wrong so I am ready to tear them a new one.

The main topics I am researching are as listed,

Crime Rate
Row Vs. Wade trial
Abortion in general
Intelligent Design in general
“earth hangs on nothing”
proof of evolution’s jumps and any facts of it
“evidence in the bible” for things
The dead sea scrolls
The earth is a circle
Historical evidences of the bible being true.

These were all arguments that my parents and me discussed. My parents mentioned a lot about evidence and reason because I myself enjoy hailing evidence and reason as the final say so in most things. A statement that my dad enjoys saying is, “In the end, you’ll have to believe in something.” My main focus in most of these arguments with my parents is that I do not have to “believe” in much. I want to get across to them that what I don’t know and can’t know, I don’t care about it because that is in the realm of supernaturalism and mysticism. It’s going to be a tough road, I would love anybody’s input into this, an just suggestions over all on how to do this with them. Thinking about it makes all of these arguments seem pretty pointless. They will never change their mind and their simplified creationist arguments that rely more on emotion than evidence will never change my mind unless they start bring empirical facts forward. I’m mostly doing it just to prove to myself that I can do it, that I can do something and that I’m not just some apostate or some person turned astray with doubts that can be turned back over by words. Just can’t allow that to happen. Thanks everybody for all of your help.

tetrapod.sapien

Daunt,

great idea to write a book! it's a situation that very few 17 year olds find themselves in with their parents. kid is an atheist/agnostic, parents are fundamentalists. i am not saying that it doesn't happen, but most kids just get the boot for doing drugs and partying. a book about a kid using his head would be cool to read, for sure.

i don't get this one:

proof of evolution’s jumps and any facts of it

jumps, as in the gaps in the fossil record?

and this:

“evidence in the bible” for things

secular historicity of the bible?

i am sure you are aware of the online resources for evolution and the secular historicity of the bible. but, do you have the time or cash to pick up a few books? if it makes more sense, i would be happy to fedEx you a couple of my books on the above subjects, but i don't think a week would be enough time to go over them. plus, you probably already have read much of that stuff. let me know if you do need anything.

it looks like you will have a lot of info to sort through in the next week. don't become overwhelmed with it all. divide it, and conqueror it.

and let me know of any questions in particular detail you may have.

best wishes,

TS

tetrapod.sapien

Daunt

Ah sorry about that tetra. I just copied and pasted a few notes that I jotted down real quick right after I talked with my parents of what they were asking me, and I didn't think to re-read them. When I say, "proof of evolution’s jumps and any facts of it" I mean more along the lines of complete transitions from ape to man, and differnet transitions like that. When I speak of, "“evidence in the bible” for things" i was considering all of the times my parents talked about how archeological evidence has proven the bible to be true. I was just going to try to get a jump start as to what the most popular archeological finds are that support the bible and refute them before they can speak of their mumbo jumbo. I would love those books but, any book that isn't JW will be hard to get past this house. My parents check all of the mail so I don't know if those books will get to me safely.

I also just wanted to say that you have been my biggest inspiration for looking towards science and reason to help me out in life Tetra. Thanks a ton.

tetrapod.sapien

- wow, thanks man.

hey, regarding archaeology and the historicity of the bible, try to get a hold of Isreal Finklestein's, The Bible Unearthed. awesome!

also, as i am sure you know, talk origins has a great section on hominid evolution. that photo of all the different craniums there is killer, along with the info.

Daunt

I'll try to look into that book, however, books are somewhat scarce since it's a great chance that my parents will see the book, (they're snoopers).

Oh man, I've been on talkorigins for the last 2 hours, excellent site. However, my parents do not understand the foundations of credibility. They want the freakin bones in their hands while they're smelling it and testing it to be really bone. They'll still probably deny it's existence after that. I just want to stump them mostly, and acknowledge when and how a person uses cognitive dissonance and plain old lieing to themselves.

vitty

Daunt

If your father said to get evidence for what you believe, he cant complain if you have some books or information mailed to you ????

peacefulpete

Why?

Does your father have questions about evolution or whatever?

If he does why not direct him to the Talk origins site and let him read it at his own pace. If he does not want to do this then your having tossed out a few arguments will not be well received.

If he does then you have some thing to discuss, otherwise you are simply jeopardizing your relationship unnecessarily.

Are you wanting a debate so as to defend your ego, forget it. Not only is this futile it will only cause years of regret.

Consider whether it is better to just calmly let him know you love him and appreciate his efforts to train you in the best way he knows but that you have a different perspective and desire only his love, not that he respect your views.

GetBusyLiving

Hey Daunt,

You might also want to talk with them about the misrepresentation of quotes in the Creation book. AlanF did a wicked write up of this.. I don't have the link to it but maybe someone could post it for Daunt?

You'll have to be careful with this though because your folks might suspect an apostate source.

GBL

tetrapod.sapien

pete has a good point. what will the outcome be if you are able to show that their arguments are as lame as they are? will they toss you out? will they let you stay at home, and get a job when you graduate so you can save up for your own place?

at any rate, you know your parents better than any of us, and what you should procede with.

the links i had to alan's essays on geo cities are dead. anyone? but he has this: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/jw-evolution.html

and then, there's also this one: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/jw-book.html

TS

Battle Royal.

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