Battle Royal.

by Daunt 44 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • mrsjones5
    mrsjones5
    In Praise of the 'Wobblies'

    Listen to this story... by Ted Gup Ted Gup

    Ted Gup has written for Time, National Geographic, The New York Times and other publications. He wrote The Book of Honor: Covert Lives and Classified Deaths at the CIA and teaches journalism at Case Western Reserve University.

    “I came to recognize that I had my own compass and my own convictions and if, at times, they took me in circles, at least they expanded outward.”

    Morning Edition, September 12, 2005 · For years I really didn't know what I believed. I always seemed to stand in the no-man's land between opposing arguments, yearning to be won over by one side or the other, but finding instead degrees of merit in both.

    I remember some 35 years ago, sitting at a table with the editor of The Washington Post and a half dozen Harvard kids. We were all finalists for a Post internship and the editor was there to winnow our numbers down. He asked each of us what we thought about the hot issues of the day -- Vietnam, Nixon, the demonstrations. The Harvard kids were dazzling. They knew exactly where they stood. Me, I just stumbled on every issue, sounding so muddled. I was sure I had forever lost my shot at the Post. Why, I wondered, could I not see as clearly as those around me?

    When the lunch was over and everyone rose to leave, the editor put his hand on my arm and asked me to stay. We talked again about the war and how it was dividing the country. A month later he wrote me a rejection letter. He said I was too young for the job but he liked my attitude. He told me that he "hunched I had a hell of a future" and to keep bugging him. I did.

    Seven years later he hired me.

    But that first letter, now framed in my office, had already given me an invaluable license. It had let me know that it was OK to be perplexed, to be torn by issues, to look at the world and not feel inadequate because it would not sort itself out cleanly. In the company of the confident, I had always envied their certainty. I imagined myself like some tiny sailboat, aimlessly tacking in whatever wind prevailed at the moment.

    But in time, I came to accept, even embrace, what I called "my confusion," and to recognize it as a friend and ally, no apologies needed. I preferred to listen rather than to speak; to inquire, not crusade. As a noncombatant, I was welcomed at the tables of even bitterly divided foes. I came to recognize that I had my own compass and my own convictions and if, at times, they took me in circles, at least they expanded outward. I had no wish for converts -- where would I lead them?

    An editor and mentor at the Post once told me I was "Wobbly." I asked who else was in that category and drew comfort from its quirky ranks. They were good people all -- open-minded, inquisitive, and yes, confused. We shared a common creed. Our articles of faith all ended with a question mark. I wouldn't want a whole newsroom, hospital, platoon or -- God forbid -- a nation of us. But in periods of crisis, when passions are high and certainty runs rabid, it's good to have a few of us on hand. In such times, I believe it falls to us Wobblies to try and hold the shrinking common ground.

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4837776

  • Daunt
    Daunt

    Thanks everybody for all of your suggestions. You won’t believe the help that all of this information has been.

    When we spoke about abortion, the mood was just a dead silent chill. When I spoke of the cost that abortions take on the women of this country they quickly went on to say, “But you do know it’s taking a life right?”. Forget about discussing and analyzing the question they immediately just went on with their dribble. They continued to talk about how if they believed in abortion I wouldn’t be here. They never really gave information or reason, but they kept harping on how it’s destroying a life and that I wouldn’t be here if they believed it, never really attacking abortion itself.

    So, I do not have much hope in changing their opinion, I’m mostly just doing this to make sure that I’m right. No better way to know you’re right unless you challenge absolute truth (ends sarcasm).

    I would like to know if there are a few techniques that you guys have found to be helpful hen talking to people who use cognitive dissonance and double think regularly in their reasoning. I feel that I am somewhat good at spotting it out and attacking it but it still gets tough when they use emotions that are just plain hard to refute.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    If you really must proceed with this, speak calmly and be insightful. They want the best for you and it terrifies them that you are even entertaining the idea of leaving the church. Don't approach the issues like a know-it-all. Ask them if they have ever wondered about certain specific matters and why they concluded what they have. Watch your body language, if you appear condescending or irritated, it's not going to help. Gently bring upn one specific evidence (be it genetic evidence of comon descent or scripture contradiction, whatever) and ask them what they make of it. Likely it will be dismissed as untrue or they will express confidence it can be explained away by someone more experienced. This is human nature. Leave it off at that point, saying that your research has convinced you otherwise. Don't let it descend into a "and another thing" argument. This is very difficult and requires self control greater than most have. If you let it go sour you will regret saying some things that you can't support adaquately without preparation and their sense of failure as parents will crush them. If however you remain focused and calm they will likely still respect your intelligence if nothing else.



    PS don't touch the abortion topic with a stick. Waaaay too loaded a topic.

  • BlackSwan of Memphis
    BlackSwan of Memphis
    When I told my mom and dad that I did not believe in the truth,

    Ok, this is what you need to keep in mind.

    Some of the questions they raised were more in re: to the Bible itself. That would be a different topic, imo.

    You need to show them why you don't want to be a dub any longer.

    That's where things like the UN, dates, abuse and flip flopping all come in.

    Don't beat yourself up in trying to prove the bible wrong, at this point. You need to show substantial evidence why you don't want to be a witness any longer.

    Many of the answers might just be in the library of your kh.

    Many of the different publications referred to by those sites that are there to aid your exit might very well be in your parents kh.

    Your relationship with god is personal. Your knowledge of the bible will increase over time, as will your personal thoughts and philosophy.

    You can't come to a conclusion on that in a week.

    I have to add....

    The posts in this thread have been awesome!

    blessings!

  • anewme
  • anewme
    anewme

    I agree with Peaceful Pete. I fear this exercise of yours may turn into a painful war you might be unprepared to pay the consequences for the things said.

    Your parents love you Daunt. I feel for them. I feel for you too. I too have felt the extreme pressure of doubts about the whole JW thing.

    Hindsight is so much better than foresight they say and that is so true.

    To confront family and friends in such a way as to make them defensive and then have them mark you as an unfit association might be handled differently if given the opportunity. But once the damage is done there is no turning back. And once you have tasted the shunning act it can turn your heart completely rebellious in response to it.

    But why go there? Peaceful Pete advised to honor your father and mother with the kind acknowledgement of their sincere interest in you but to politely remind them of your own views which they might have to accept. Ease them into the truth that you are your own person and will make up your mind about all these things and it may be you will come to a different conclusion than they.

    Anyway, hang in there Daunt.
    Anewme

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    Daunt,

    >When we spoke about abortion, the mood was just a dead silent chill. When I spoke of the cost that abortions take on the women of this country they quickly went on to say, “But you do know it’s taking a life right?”.

    DO you know that? Do you also know that abortion has some very real complications, both physical and mental?


    >Forget about discussing and analyzing the question they immediately just went on with their dribble. They continued to talk about how if they believed in abortion I wouldn’t be here. They never really gave information or reason, but they kept harping on how it’s destroying a life and that I wouldn’t be here if they believed it, never really attacking abortion itself.

    They attacked it directly. It is the taking of a completely defenseless human life. It is murder. Have you ever seen a 12 week gestation baby after some wonderful abortionist removed this unwanted piece of flesh? Have you ever seen what happens to a third trimester, partial birth aborted baby? This is the stuff of nightmares. You should be ashamed of yourself.
    You have probably sealed the fate of your parents in the WBTS. They will not want to 'become what you have become'. I am not trying to be cruel, think about this some.
    Rex

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    >The Earth is a circle The earth is a SPHERE!

    >Just reach into your pocket and pull out a quarter. The quarter is a circle BUT IT IS FLAT!! The ancients believed the earth was like a dinner plate with a covering top dome on it.

    You are talking about a particular passage that is poetry, Terry. You blew the context out. Even the ancient Mesopotamian astronomers knew that the earth was round. The later darkness of the middle ages obscured this fact.
    Rex

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    You are talking about a particular passage that is poetry, Terry. You blew the context out.

    There is no evidence that the prose parts of the OT had a radically different (i.e. heliocentric, spherical-earth) cosmology than the poetic parts. See Daniel 4:10-11, for instance, or Ezekiel 1:22-26, 10:1, Genesis 1:6-7, 14-15, 7:11, 8:2, Zechariah 12:1, etc. which use the same cosmological language and conception as the poetic parts. Such cosmology is not mere "figure of speech" (bear in mind that our own figures of speech in English, such as "the corners of the earth", derive from the Bible and became metaphors when people adopted heliocentric ways of thinking), one could for instance note the elaborate and explicit cosmology in 1 Enoch (a book cited as genuine prophecy in the Bible) which can only be characterized as geocentric.

    Even the ancient Mesopotamian astronomers knew that the earth was round.

    Who? BTW, Akkadian literature like Ugaritic and Hebrew writings had a geocentric conception of the universe; cf. the Gilgamesh Epic, in which the hero goes into the underworld by following the course of the sun through Mount Mashu where it sets and enters on the other end of the world where it rises.

    Certain Greek astronomers concluded that the earth was spherical, I think, but this was on the basis of scientific observations. This knowledge would have been later lost.

  • Terry
    Terry
    You are talking about a particular passage that is poetry, Terry. You blew the context out. Even the ancient Mesopotamian astronomers knew that the earth was round. The later darkness of the middle ages obscured this fact.

    Rex

    Can you say, "special pleading"?

    Here is the crisis your opinion engenders. If a passage in the bible is factual, it can represent fact and represent "advanced" thinking. But, if a passage in the bible is poetic, it cannot represent fact.

    Which do you want it to be?

    If you are asserting the Bible contains information "revealed" by a supreme being beyond human knowledge you'll find the bible falls completely flat.

    I think I'll start another thread about the FLAT EARTH belief system of the nation of Israel.

    Further, just as a sidebar.....the builders of the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem thought the numerical value of PI (3.1415926...) was only 3!!!

    You'd think that God would know better since all the measurements were "inspired".

    But, special pleading is invoked here too by apologists. Sigh.

    T.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit