JW question

by Vienna 18 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  chappy

  "My dear, I have probably read the book of Revelation over one hundred times. What do you imagine that I have overlooked?"

  / You Know

  How to think.
• 

  MadApostate

  Francis & ViennaSausage:

  You Both are FOOLS.

  VS plainly portrays the WTS position as teaching that the 144,000 have SOULS, which as both YouKnow and myself point out is a LIE.

  Then you fail to answer my simple question: What is an "approved" translation, and who does the approving. Your ridiculous answer about "bookstores" shows you to be nothing but a FundyTroll.

  Yes, I do need a cup of coffee, but not to deal with you two.

  Stupid shit such as misrepresenting WTS teachings does nothing but confirm what the WTS says about XJWs. You are a liability to the CAUSE!!!
• 

  nytelecom1

  the NWT is not an approved translations so that doesn't count

  just wondering what committe has the global power to approve any and all Bible translations....becuase i am working on a translation of my own.....where do I get the forms for "approval"

  tell me why only JWs push it, why no bookstores carry it

  why sell it when it is given away for free??

  excuse mr. larson can we have your books for free and sell them for 10 bucks??
• 

  Vienna

  Thanks for your post You Know (ignore my post to MA). I'm normally not nasty, but he annoyed me.

  Where is the "great crowd" of Revelation 7:15? One of the core doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses is that the group depicted in this verse resides on the earth. Witnesses believe that the vast majority of redeemed mankind will be blessed with everlasting human life on earth, while only a "little flock" of 144,000 will go to heaven to serve with Christ. Is this true?? One of the Watchtower Society's main doctrines is that there are actually two classes of Christians--the earthly class, and the heavenly class. Those of the earthly class, therefore, are not in the new covenant mediated by Christ and enjoy a relationship with God only by virtue of their association with those who profess to be the last remaining members of the 144,000 still on earth. To understand the scope of this controversy and its implications, it is essential to know the meanings of two Greek words--naos and hieron--as they relate to God's temple in the Bible.

  Hieron is the Greek word for the entire temple complex with all its sub-structures and courts. Naos refers to the inner sanctuary of the temple complex which included the Holy and Holy of Holies (or Most Holy).

  Now, it was from the court of the outer temple (hieron--not naos) that Jesus drove the money changers. (See Matt. 21:12, Mark 11:15, Luke 19:45 and John 2:14,15 in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation.)
  It was the entire temple (hieron--not naos) that was destroyed as a judgment from God. (See Matt. 24:1,2, Mark 13:1-3 and Luke 21:5,6 in the Kingdom Interlinear.)

  The further you study, the more apparent it became that the apostle John's use of the word naos in the pertinent texts in Revelation referred to the inner sanctuary representing heaven. Once again, it represents HEAVEN. (See for example Revelation 3:12, 7:15, 11:1, 11:19, 14:15, 15:5, 16:1,17)

  It is commonly recognized by Bible scholars that the "courtyard that is outside" the naos referred to in this verse alludes to the courtyard of the gentiles in the temple rebuilt by Herod.

  Clearly, this outermost court is in no way the naos (inner sanctuary or "divine habitation") where the "great crowd" is depicted as serving God in Revelation 7:15. It is said to be "outside" the naos and those occupying this courtyard are portrayed as opposers, not supporters of true worship.

  IF YOU DON'T READ ANYTHING ELSE::::
  A very important fact is that at Revelation 7:9, 15, the "great crowd" is said to be "before the throne" of God. As the Society's publications have pointed out, the Greek word translated "before" in this text is "enopion" and it LITERALLY means "in [the] sight [of]." (See for example page 123 of the book, Revelation--Its Grand Climax at Hand [1988].) This Greek word is used repeatedly throughout the book of Revelation to locate objects and persons "before" or "in the sight of" God in heaven. Where are they????? In heaven. Looking up the following verses in The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures makes this clear:

  Revelation 1:4 - "seven spirits that are before (enopion) his [God's] throne, ...."
  Revelation 4:5 - "seven lamps of fire burning before (enopion) the throne [of God], ...."
  Revelation 4:6 - "And before (enopion) the throne [of God] there is, as it were, a glassy sea like crystal."
  Revelation 4:10 - "the twenty-four elders fall down before (enopion) the One seated upon the throne..., and they cast their crowns before (enopion) the throne, ...."
  Revelation 7:9 - "a great crowd, ... standing before (enopion) the throne and before (enopion) the Lamb ...."
  Revelation 7:11 - "And all the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their faces before (enopion) the throne and worshiped God, ...."
  Revelation 7:15 - "That is why they [the great crowd] are before (enopion) the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service ...."
  Revelation 8:3 - "And another angel arrived and stood at the altar, having ... incense ... to offer ... with the prayers of all the holy ones upon the golden altar that was before (enopion) the throne."
  Revelation 9:13 - "And I heard one voice out of the horns of the golden altar that is before (enopion) God."
  Revelation 11:16 - "And the twenty-four elders who were seated before (enopion) God ...."
  Revelation 14:3 - "And they [the 144,000] are singing as if a new song before (enopion) the throne and before (enopion) the four living creatures and the elders; ...."

  My personal favorite is Rel. 19:1. Can't get any clearer than that. What does all of this mean??? Clearly, when considered in context, there is little reason to doubt that the "great crowd" is "before the throne" in heaven in the same manner as the seven lamps of fire, the glassy sea like crystal, the crowns of the 24 elders, the angels, the elders themselves, the four living creatures, the golden altar, and the 144,000.

  Again it is a case of the Society reasoning from traditional beliefs and interpretations and endeavoring to make the Bible align with these, instead of starting with the Scriptures and then changing its teachings to conform to God's Word. (Compare Matthew 15:1-9 and Mark 7:6-9 where Jesus condemned the scribes and Pharisees for allowing tradition to take precedence over God's Word.) So it still remains to be seen if the Society will one day return to its pre-1935 position of accepting the Bible's plain teaching that the great crowd is located "before the throne" in God's heavenly sanctuary (naos) or if instead they will just continue to obscure matters by trying to force the Bible to agree with the present teachings of the organization.
• 

  SixofNine

  Actually, "why isn't the NWT sold in bookstores?", is a very good question. That would be another very good avenue for getting it into the hands of people.

  In fact, the question is begged, "why aren't most JW publications in bookstores?".

  The answers to these questions may seem obvious, and I think they probably are, but I also think that this is a case of the questions being more profound than the answers.

  If these publications had any real value, they would be published in both traditional and non-traditional ways.
• 

  Vienna

  My point EXACTLY, SixOfNine. Not being funny, but that very thing bothered me when I was a witness. I knew something was differant about WT bibles/publications in order for them not to be sold in bookstores and not taken seriously as valid theology. It was was of the things that caused me to research, and that research lead me to real truth!
• 

  You Know

  To Vienna.

  I am going out preaching right now, but later, perhaps today, or maybe tomorrow, I will respond to your research and show you something that I bet you never thought of before. By the way, the reason our Bibles are not sold in book stores is because they are not for sale. We don't even sell them at the door. Even when we did sell them a few years back they only cost a buck. Bible book stores are in the business to make a profit. An NIV or King James cost $20 or $30, or more, so they really don't have any incentive to sell a Bible for a few bucks. And if they marked the price up why would people pay for it at a book store when they can get it for a small donation when the Witnesses drop by the house? Take care. / You Know
• 

  Englishman

  144,000 my eye! We're all the same, no-on knows what happens when we die, probably absolutely nothing but if I were to have my money on anything it would be reincarnation.

  Whats the big deal? Are we all like spoiled children, we can't wait and see? Lets live life to the full now. This ain't a dress rehearsal!

  Englishman.

  ..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.
• 

  Vienna

  You Know:

  Thanks for your response, but I beg to differ on your point. The WT doesn't have books in bookstores because it would take money out of their pocket. Come on, what greater "witness" would their be than to get more and more converts to their organization? Putting publications in a bookstore would surely do the trick! Currently they don't have to pay for publishers, rights, vendors, etc. because they get free marketers to not only take the books to people, but to get the books made. Bethel workers are slave labor. They get a small monthly allowance, but come on, for the full-time work they do for long hours a day and week don't even measure up. The Society has free labor. They only pay the very small cost for paper. So, for a bible that would cost $20 in a bookstore, they can get a similar amount "donated" and have all of the profit put in their pocket. Also, don't forget that bookstores and publishers dictate the costs of books. There is a reason you are paying $20 for that bible--they take into consideration production costs, etc., etc. People take the publications to the door for free. Profit, profit, profit.

  Now, another more solid reason WT publications aren't sold in bookstores has to do with the WT's doctrine and failure to have having a good translation. Why is that an issue? If you put a work of theology out for the public, there are thousands of critics ready to pick apart any discrepancies, flaws, errors that aren't right. Sadly, due to the WT's unsound doctrine, they can not stand up to the such an open spotlight that would show their work as being the false religion that it is. One small case example of caving was during a court trial held in Scotland in 1954 (during the same period that the New World Translation was being made) Franz was asked if he had made himself familiar with Hebrew. His reply was "Yes." He also acknowledged under oath that he could read and follow the Bible in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Spanish, Portuguese, German and French. The following day, during the same court trial, his linguistic abilities were put to the test. He was asked to translate Genesis 2:4 into Hebrew. He failed the test as he was unable to do so. In fact he did not even try, but rather stated "No, I wouldn't attempt to do that."(See, Court of Session, Scotland - Douglas Walsh vs. The Right Honourable James Latham Clyde -November 1954.)

  Numerous scholars with true credentials in the Biblical languages have condemned the Watchtower's New World Translation as a fatal distortion of God's written Word. For example, see The Bible Collector (July-December, 1971) issue which devotes three articles evaluating the Watchtower scripture.