IMO --as stated on other threads ----- the 144k is a litteral number of christians that die as martyrs and enter the city of new jerusalem through the 12 pearl gates as spirits . The great crowd are those that survive the great time of distress or tribulation and enter the city through it's courtyard after having met the lord in the air the city decends onto earth with jesus in it , just as described when he ascended the angel said he would return the same way . Acts 1:11
The Great Crowd
by buffalosrfree 29 Replies latest jw friends
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Leolaia
sinis....Actually, the word enópion "before, in sight of" is used in Revelation to refer to beings and things that are located in heaven. Thus, other things that are enópion tou thronou "before the Throne" include the "seven spirits" in 1:4 (cf. the "seven angels before God" in 8:2), the "seven burning lamps of fire" in 4:5, "the crystalline glassy sea" in 4:6, the "twenty-four elders" in 4:10 (cf. 5:8), the "golden altar" in 8:3 and 9:13, and so forth. The "great crowd" standing "before the Throne" in 7:9, 11, 15 are thus in heaven like the seven spirits, the lamps of fire, the altar, the twenty-four elders, etc. and are mentioned in proximity of the "angels standing in a circle around the Throne" and the "elders" and "four animals" in 7:11. The text makes their presence in heaven explicit by saying that they "are in the sanctuary (en tó naó)" in v. 15 and "in heaven" (en tó ouranó) in 19:1.
In Revelation, the earth is ruined or corrupted (diaphtheiren and ephtheiren) by the fornication of Babylon the Great with the kings of the earth so that "all the nations" are drunk with the "disgusting filth of her fornication" ("the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication" in 17:2; cf. 17:4, 18:3, and Leviticus 18 which refers to fornication and sexual sins as "defiling the earth" in the LXX).
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heathen
They are in heaven but the difference is that heaven lands on earth . The city of new jerusalem is the kingdom of the heavens as talked about by jesus and the apostles . Of course reading the WTBTS publications they say all of that is symbolic and the city never actually lands on earth yadda yadda . They really are idiots . Any who that's when the marriage feast of the lamb happens and that whole story of the 10 virgins plays out the ones with the oil are the ones invited ..........
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Leolaia
heathen....What you refer to as "heaven landing on earth" (which is not actually the descent of heaven itself; rather it is "New Jerusalem" coming down ek tou ouranou "out of heaven" to the earth, 21:2) is something that happens after the martyrs are assembled in heaven. There are martyrs in heaven before this happens, even before the end of the tribulation and Armageddon (cf. 6:9-11). Note also that the establishment of the eschatological Jerusalem on earth pertains to a "new heaven and new earth" (21:1), the present earth had already "vanished, leaving no trace" in 20:12. Before this, the "temple" is clearly located in "heaven" (11:19, 14:17, 15:5). It is the present earth where the Beast rules with Babylon the Great, under whose dominion the saints are martyred (13:7-8, 17:6). Thus, the martyred saints who assemble postmortem "in the temple" are sheltered underneath God's "tent" (7:15), and that they are there during the tribulation of the Beast (i.e. in the present earth) is indicated by 13:6 which refers to the Beast mouthing its blasphemies "against God, against his name, his heavenly Tent (tén skénén autou ... en tou ouranou) and all those who are sheltered there (tous skénountas)".
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sinis
Thanks. However, it does not make sense to keep the wicked on earth and those of the great crowd go to heaven. I consider myself to be a decent person but I DO NOT WANT TO GO TO HEAVEN. I have no interest. I would rather enjoy life on earth (under better conditions of course). In the interesting painting you portray earth in of itself becomes "hell". At the moment I just don't buy it - I guess (if it comes in my life) we will just have to wait and see...
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Leolaia
sinis....As I discussed in my last post, the concept in Revelation is that the saints in New Jerusalem will ultimately be established on the earth....but not this earth. In Deutero-Isaiah, 4 Ezra, 2 Peter, and other works, there is a similar concept of a "recreation" of earth and heaven after the destruction of the old heavens and earth. The important thing to understand about Revelation is that its plot turns on the concept of all God's people at the time of the end being martyred:
"Anyone who refused to worship the statue of the Beast was put to death. The Beast compelled everyone -- small and great, rich and poor, slave and citizen -- to be branded on the right hand or on the forehead and made it illegal for anyone to buy or sell anything unless he had been branded with the name of the Beast" (Revelation 13:15-17).
This doesn't leave any room for God's servants to still be left on earth. That is why it is called the "great tribulation" (7:14). God, meanwhile, will not "take vengeance" for those already martyred "until the roll [of the martyrs] was complete and their fellow servants and brothers had been killed just as they had been" (6:10-11). Once the roll is complete, God will start taking revenge and kill off those following the Beast. So in 16:2, tortures are poured out "on all the people who had been branded with the mark of the Beast and had worshipped its statue" and by 19:2 God "has avenged his servants that she killed", such that "all those who worship the Beast and his statue, or have had themselves branded on the hand or forehead will be made to drink the wine of God's fury which is ready in the cup of his anger, in fire and brimestone they will be tortured in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb and the smoke of their torture will go up forever and ever" (14:9-10; cf. 19:20-21, "all the rest were killed by the sword of the Rider"). Then, once everyone else has been killed off, "the souls of all who had been beheaded for having witnessed for Jesus ... those who refused to worship the Beast and would not have the brand-mark on their foreheads or hands" will come to life in the resurrection (20:4). When the text is read on its own terms, it just does not presuppose the WTS scenario of the End.
I personally do not like the apocalyptic scenario of Revelation either, but that's what it is....it describes a future persecution in which all will have to make a stand for Christ, to the death, and those who do not and accept the mark of the Beast or worship it will themselves receive God's vengeance. Heaven is the temporary abode of the saints before New Jerusalem is established on a new earth. One can refuse martyrdom thereby refusing going to heaven, but such people -- in the logic of Revelation -- will make the wrong choice and pay with their life.
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sinis
Very interesting! Thanks. So does the vision John sees of the Great Crowd come after all of this? So is he "seeing" those who died? IMHO, the whole scenario of Revelation (at least how you presented it - which is actually VERY interesting) seems very backasswards. Why would God allow everyone who wants to follow him die only to kill those remaining off? I don't think having to die for something really accomplishes anything. I mean, given the current world, if someone offered me something a thousand times better I would take the offer and never look back. If they told me I had to obey them I would gladly do it considering that this person was almighty god and I had experienced the crappy way man and the angels (satan) have done things.
Almost sounds like evicting the occupants of a home because of roach infestation, burning the house down, rebuilding a new house and letting the people live there again. Why not just gas the roaches? I'll have to do more reading on this. I appreciate the different insight from what the society offers.
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sinis
Just thinking about it but shouldn't Almighty God know who is deserving of death and who is not? Why push obedient humans towards death? Very disturbing, at least in my mind. Thats like asking your child to PROVE he/she loves you by having the kill themselves or put themselves in harms way. Wouldn't deeds, everyday actions and speech be enough?
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Leolaia
So does the vision John sees of the Great Crowd come after all of this? So is he "seeing" those who died?
The usual analysis is that John is given a prospective vision of the assembled martyrs following the great tribulation and following the victory of the Lamb over the Beast and those who had persecuted the Church, which complements the audition of the 144,000 which John heared being numbered but did not see. Thus, in ch. 19, we have an audition of the "great crowd" in heaven who sing a victory song along the same lines as the victory declaration in 7:10 ("Victory and glory and power to our God!"), and the great crowd then say: "This is the time for the marriage of the Lamb. His Bride is ready, and she has been able to dress herself in dazzling white linen" (19:7-8). The Bride of Christ is ready because the full number of the Church (= 6:9-11) has been assembled in the bridal chambers (i.e. heaven) and everyone has been given a "white robe" following their martyrdom (cf. 6:11, 7:9) which corresponds to the Bride being dressed in "white linen".
Why would God allow everyone who wants to follow him die only to kill those remaining off? ... Almost sounds like evicting the occupants of a home because of roach infestation, burning the house down, rebuilding a new house and letting the people live there again. Why not just gas the roaches?
It is not much different than God destroying the earth with water in Noah's day, just to kill off the rest of humanity. 2 Peter 3 draws an explicit parallel between the Flood and the coming Day of the Lord: "The earth was formed by the word of God out of water and between the waters, so that the world of that time was destroyed by being flooded by water. But by the same word, the present sky and earth are destined for fire, and are only being reserved until Judgment Day so that all sinners may be destroyed ... with a roar the sky will vanish, the elements will catch fire and fall apart, the earth and all that it contains will be burnt up ... the sky will dissolve in flames and the elements melt in the heat" (3:5-7, 10, 12). I agree it doesn't make much logical sense, but that is what the apocalyptic expection often was. If you read the Sybilline Oracles, you will find a very detailed description of how all this will come about.
Just thinking about it but shouldn't Almighty God know who is deserving of death and who is not? Why push obedient humans towards death? Very disturbing, at least in my mind.
Revelation is a disturbing book. It looks at the world in very black-and-white terms; you are either on the side of Satan and the Beast, or you are on the side of Christ. It makes it clear that everyone in the time of the Great Tribulation must make a choice between the two. John believed that such a tribulation was imminent, so he exhorted the Christians in the seven churches to similarly make a stand. Thus, Jesus tells the disobedient members of the churches of Ephesus and Pergamum that "If you do not repent, I shall come to you and take your lampstand from its place....You must repent or I shall soon come to you and attack these people with the sword of my mouth" (2:5, 16-17). Similarly, he warns those in Thyatira that he "will give each one of you what your behavior deserves" (2:23-26). Those who are faithful to Christ receive the "seal" of protection and thus will not be harmed at all in the plagues and destruction that God and his angels would bring to the earth (cf. 7:3, 9:3-6).
They are not spared the wrath of Satan and the Beast, however. What must be understood is that John sees martyrdom in a very positive light. It is the very means through which Christians will triumph over Satan: "They have triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the witness of their martyrdom, because even in the face of death they will not cling to life" (12:11). A similar theme runs through Paul's letters and the gospels. Paul describes Christ's crucifixion as a victory of the Sovereignties and Powers (Colossians 2:14-15), and looked forward to his own martyrdom (cf. Philippians 1:14, 21-25). John presented Jesus' passion as a victory over "the prince of this world" (John 12:31-32, 14:30, 16:11, 33) and indicated that his followers will follow his example because "a servant is not greater than his master" (15:18-21). In Mark 8:34, Jesus states: "If anyone wants to be a follower of mine, let him renounce himself and take up his cross and follow me (akoloutheitó moi)". We also read: "If anyone wants to be a follower of mine, let him renounce himself and take up his cross and follow me. For anyone who wants to save his life will lose it, but anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it" (Matthew 16:24-25). 1 Peter 2:21 states: "Christ suffered and left an example for you to follow (epakolouthéséte) his footsteps", and goes on to encourage Christians to face persecution (4:15-19) and especially to stand up to the Devil who is "prowling around like a roaring lion looking for someone to eat...You will have to suffer only for a little while, the God of all grace who called you to the eternal glory in Christ will see that all is well again" (5:8-10). See also James 1:12 and 1 Peter 5:4 about receiving a "crown" of victory for persevering persecution (cf. 1 Corinthians 9:25, Revelation 3:11, and ch. 20 in which the martyrs raised in the first resurrection reign as "kings").
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heathen
I do disagree with some of what leolaia is saying . I think revelation is telling us that there are only 144K kings and priests and that there are 2 resurrections . The first one is for those that died as martyrs . I don't think it a requirement for all christians to die as martyrs and there are many scriptures showing that as well . The great crowd is shown as preserving their souls alive in the great fear inspiring day of God almighty . They survive because they enter the city of new jerusalem as the faithful and true while all others are rejected and await destruction or being thrown in the lake of fire . You are right the entire earth is destroyed by fire so how else can God save people but to come to earth as a noahs ark , if you will . I think it gets more complicated than that but it about sums up my opinion ......