The Great Crowd (page 3)

Wasanelder Once

Blah, blah, blah. Anyone for a nice glass of wine and no motza?

W.Once

I don’t mean to be disrespectful to others beliefs but it drives me crazy when people take the bible so literally, especially books like Revelations that it filled with symbolism. The bible has been translated over and over again for hundreds of years. Most of us have heard of the story passing game. You line up 10 people and tell the first one a simple story. By the end of the line, the story is never the same and in many cases totally different. How can the bible be thought of any differently. If an almighty GOD wanted his story told, don’t you think he would do it clearly and in a manner that all could understand. Personally I find it impossible that the Bible that is read by Christians is anywhere near how it was originally written. With that in mind, how can any logical person base their faith and their lives on stories that are incorrect?

If there is no proof that the Bible is the inspired word of GOD, why do people so whole heartily accept the things written in it as fact? In my humble opinion the Bible is a nice book filled with stories about good and evil. There is no doubt that the bible does contain a lot accurate historical information but to accept the mythical parts as fact and the “Truth” show a lack of critical thinking skills.

Clayton

“Brothers don’t shake hands, brothers got to hug”

heathen

clayton --- I look at the bible as being an inspired writing that was indeed tampered with along the way but it still speaks of redemption and as far as I'm concerned offers mankind the only path to salvation through the savior jesus christ . I'm with ya tho that people have different opinions as to what it is saying and the symbolism is open to interpretation . I already know that leolaia believes it is saying rapture, for instance, where as I believe it is saying that christ returns to earth to save those he can before the big A . I believe that most people are born to inherit a paradise earth but are seen as being in heaven because the kingdom itself is the city of new jerusalem , kind of a capital city where mankind can enter and leave even after the climactic end in order to bury the bones of all the dead for one thing .......... After all the entire universe belongs to God anyway so if he wants to move in to earth I suppose he can ......

LouBelle

Thanks for quoting that scrip defd I thought I was going to have too. But if you re-read vs 9 again but this time very carefully you will see:

""and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes"" Now if we ask ourselves - where is this throne of God....the answer must be........In the heavens (we know this to be a spiritual heavens & not literal) So then that means the great crowd are in Heaven???? and not on earth....living in a paradise.

claytoncapeletti

What makes the Christian Bible right and all other bibles wrong? Where is the proof that the Christian Bible is more inspired than the Koran, Kabbalah, The Book of Mormon, Bhagavad-Gita, or the Torah? Each set of people that follow these various Bibles, believe just as strongly that their book is the inspired bible. What makes them wrong and Christian’s right? In my opinion believing that the Christian Bible is the only inspired word of god is just as narrow minded as believing JW's are the only chosen people. Just because the bible says it's gods word doesn’t mean that it is the word of god. The Watchtower also says it is inspired by god, but that doesn’t mean that it is inspired by god.

Clayton

"Brothers don’t shake hands brothers got to hug"

jwfacts

Sinis
the only reason you are not cool with going to heaven is the JWs have told you not to be. For centuries billions of people were taught they were going to heaven and were quite fine with that. My mother was a Catholic and merrily looking forward to heaven. Now she's a JW and suddenly earth is the only place she could ever want to be.
The earth is temporary anyway. Any second year science student knows the sun is finite and will eventually consume the earth. Even the bible writers knew it. (Isaiah 51:6) 6 “Raise YOUR eyes to the heavens themselves, and look at the earth beneath. For the very heavens must be dispersed in fragments just like smoke, and like a garment the earth itself will wear out, and its inhabitants themselves will die like a mere gnat."
There are more scriptures saying the earth will be destroyed than will last forever.

Leolaia

heathen....As I mentioned in earlier posts, the "Beast apocalypse" of Revelation does not leave any room for a third group that remains on earth surviving the Great Tribulation. Revelation 13:15-17 states that EVERYONE who refuses to worship the Beast or accept its mark will be put to death and that the Beast forced EVERYONE, including the great and the small, the rich and the poor, to accept its mark. Those who are raised in the "first resurrection" are those who were beheaded for refusing to worship the Beast and accept its mark on their foreheads or hands (20:4), whereas those who are executed by God and the Lamb are "ALL those who worship the Beast or his statue or had themselves branded" (14:9-10). Meanwhile, God would not begin his execution until the "roll" of the martyrs is complete; he will wait until ALL of the martyrs have been killed before he takes his vengeance (6:9-11). These statements clearly divide humanity at the time of the Great Tribulation into two dichotomous groups: (1) Those who worship the Beast who are spared by the Beast but are killed by God at Armageddon, (2) Those who refuse to worship the Beast and are executed by the Beast for their faith in Jesus, but who will be raised in the "first resurrection". It's a grim picture, but that is what the author supposes for the end times.

The 144,000, meanwhile, is simply the number of faithful Christians on EARTH (probably figurative since the tribes they are sealed from are figurative) who would be imperiled by the divine plagues (of ch. 8 and 9) and they all receive a "seal" of protection against divine punishment (cf. 7:3, 9:4). Again, the author does not assume another group of Christians on earth who do not receive this seal of protection.

claytoncapeletti....If you were referring to me in your first post, you should know that I approach Revelation as literature....I do not believe it has much "prophetic" relevance to our own time; it was written at a time of Roman hegemony and Nero redivivus hysteria and reflects the common apocalyptic expectations of the late first century AD very well. But like Daniel, Ezekiel, etc. I regard it as unfulfilled (= failed) prophecy. I also believe that it is not a totally incoherent book (despite its ecclectic origins) but has a general plot and conceptual framework, which is what I have been discussing in this thread.

TD

I don't think the situation with the Bible is quite as bad as the "Passing Game." Extant manuscripts, though not original are still quite old and reading ancient Greek (Koine or Attic) is far from being a lost art. Even among people that don't need it professionally, it's sort of a geeky hobby.

The real challenge is in trying to understanding what the imagery and motifs probably meant to the author and the audience contemporary with the writing. In this respect, I think Leolaia's commentary is as good or better than any published work I've read.

claytoncapeletti

Leolaia, I wasnt refering to anyone in general during my first posts. I just don't understand peoples thinking when it comes to do with the Bible as the inspired word of God. So many people base their way of life on this book and then act like it is the only way to believe. How can someone base their entire life on a book that is outdated and full of unprovable events. For some people it works and that's great, but since leaving the borg, I have come to realize the ego involved in someones belief system. Thats what it boils down to for me, most people dont want to see the Bible as just a book because it will destory their ego. Thats why so many people stay in their religions and or cults. The fear of being wrong is a powerful one and many people are not willing to be wrong when it comes to their belief system.

Clayton

"Brothers dont shake hands, brothers got to hug"

heathen

clayton --- this happens to be a thread about the bible . That's fine if you think the koran and various other literature is just as important . I don't .

I see what you are trying to say leolaia but still argue that there are scriptures that show a little different picture such as Daniel 12 :1 where there are people that escape from the harsh conditions . Revelation 7:14 . these people come out of the great tribulation . I'm telling ya it's more a descending thing and not an ascending thing ........

The Great Crowd

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