Which Bible to get?

by Kat_ 29 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Hairdog1937

  Dear Mom:

  In your response to Kat, you said: “A small word of caution though.....remember all bibles have their flaws and errors. Many have been tainted to agree with whatever religion it was written to cater to.”

  This will probably create another thread, which is alright with me, but I was wondering: Could you be more specific about your comment that “all bibles have their flaws and errors”? Did you mean that the many manuscripts have variances, or that they have doctrinal errors, or what? Finally, could you identify the “many” bibles that have been “tainted to agree with whatever religion it was written to cater to”? Additionally, of the Bibles I mentioned in my thread to Kat, do any of these fall into the “tainted” category. If so, would you please amplify? Thanks.

  Your comment to Kat regarding the necessity of one to first study the Bible in order to have (eternal) life is right on. I would add to your listed Scriptures that one also read in John the following references: chapter 1:12-13; chapter 3:1-21 and chapter 6:22-65. These also provide great insight into the complete and total inability of man to gain eternal life. The ability to believe (see your chapter reference, verse 38) which leads to the coming to Jesus Christ for life, as mentioned in your stated reference, must come from God.

  The blessings of Jehovah be upon you,

  Hairdog
• 

  myMichelle

  Hi Kat_,

  Welcome to the board, saw your thread in the personal experiences forum.

  If you would like to compare several versions of the bible, there used to be (and probably still is) an on-line site with several versions of the bible. It's called the World Wide Study Bible, sorry I don't have the url handy, but if you go to Yahoo or Google (or any other search engine of your choice) you should be able to find it.

  I personally bought several versions of the bible to do comparisions when reading it. The WWSB allows the same thing on-line.

  Good luck,
  Michelle
• 

  Frenchy

  Hairdog:
  I know your question was directed at mom but I would like to say something on the subject if you don't mind.

  Translation of the Bible is a formidable task.

  There are no existing copies of the original manuscripts of those writings which comprise our Bible. That means that all we have are copies of copies of copies...etc. First: An examination of the copies that have survived tells us that they are not all the same.. True they are very close and in most cases with only minor differences. Perhaps the small variances matter not in the least. But those small diffences alert us to the possibilty of greater deviations. What Bible scholars will do is study these manuscripts and make a determination of which are the most reliable. Now remember that not all those manuscripts are the complete works of so much as one book, let alone the entire collection of Scripture. So we may have several fragments of Jeremiah, some of which may be contradictory so comparisons are made until the scholar reaches a conclusion of what is the most likely rendering of the ORIGINAL text. This goes on for all the books and finally a master text is produced. The KJV, for example is taken from a master text known as the Textus Receptus or 'recieved text.' while the NWT is based primarily on the Westcott & Hort text.

  Second: Now the real work begins, that of translating into English (or any other modern language) the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek text. No one who is familiar with only one language can truly appreciate the difficulty in translating one language into another. For one thing the 'flavor' of the wording is not the same. There are some words in one language that simply cannot be translated to convey their 'flavor' and import into another. So, subtleties are lost and the translator must try to substitute words and phrases to approximate. It is in these gray areas that translators must evaluate the phrase and make a judgment as to what they believe the writer intended and then they express this in one of the modern languages. It's 'guesstimation'. Big question: Who really knows what the writer meant? The translator's concept or idea of what is meant will be colored by his own personal views. Thus the tainting. It is unavoidable.

  I have left out many details for the sake of brevity. I hope this gives you a better view of some of the problems associated with arriving at a 'good' translation of the Bible. That is why I always recommend using several translations. You will then be able to see at least some of the variance on the way these texts are rendered.

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
• 

  Hairdog1937

  First of all, we’re not talking about manuscripts (mss) that someone just happened to find a few minutes or years ago. Those that we have (i.e., of the New Testament) are dated as far back as the 2nd century; and the grand thing about all of these mss is that Jehovah God saw to it that His Word would not become invalidated. He sovereignly controlled it. The mss may vary in spelling, and in some cases, content, but none of His perfect teachings are lacking in harmony. For example, it is quite clear that Jehovah is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Verses such as 1 John 5:7 in the King James version do not exist in, i.e., the Nestle-Aland text, but that doesn’t invalidate the doctrine of the triune Godhead.

  Second, since God has seen to it that His Word remains faithful and true, the thousands of mss do not in any way create any doctrinal errors. Man may do this (and he does), but the accuracy of Biblical truth is not affected.

  Third, these mss didn’t just appear in the 20th or 21st centuries. They have existed over thousands of years covering thousands of years of culture, history, archaeology and grammar. All of these need to be taken into consideration when exegeting (contrasted with eisogesis). These hermeneutical principles have been applied in such a fashion that there is no question (except for those which come from the unregenerate) as to the doctrinal content of the Holy Scriptures. Understanding the Word of God can come only through divine enablement.

  Finally, one who has been regenerated by the Spirit of God (cf. John 3:3-8; 6:37-65) is guided by Him in the truth (John 8:32; 14:6, 26). Therefore, he carefully and spiritually compares the teaching of men with that of the Scriptures (Acts 17:11) and knows the truth.

  It is true that each writer of Scripture was affected by his own style, ethnicity and background, but we must remember that “…no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God” (2 Peter 1:21). Therefore, taking all of these things into consideration, we can know what was meant since God is the Athor and man is the “pen.”.

  Hairdog
• 

  AGuest

  Hello, dearest 'Kat'... and may you have peace!

  While indeed, the REFERNCE NWT is probably the most comprehensible 'Bible' you will find (sorry, folks, but it is true, based on the contents of the 'footnotes'), in TRUTH, there is actually something MUCH better than a 'Bible' of ANY translation or version:

  John 5:39, 40

  May you read the Bible verse, as quoted above... and 'get the sense' of it.

  A slave of Christ,

  SJ
• 

  Quester

  About the New World Translation,
  The main reason why I quit reading
  it was to break out of the jw mindset.

  Reading a different translation/version
  Bible helped me to see and understand
  the scriptures in a different way than
  the jw's taught.

  I also think it is beneficial to compare
  different Bibles when studying.
  Especially if you want to brainstorm on
  different ways to understand a scripture.

  For example, try reading the love chapter,
  1 Cor 13 in different Bibles. Some of th
  words used are much more meaningful to me.

  Quester
• 

  Frenchy

  First of all, we’re not talking about manuscripts (mss) that someone just happened to find a few minutes or years ago.

  No one mentioned when the manuscripts were found and no one said that Jehovah has not allowed variances (deviations from the original words..errors) to creep into the Scriptures. Proof of that is that Jesus and his apostles quoted from the Septuagint version and these (sometimes erroneously translated) words became part of the Greek Scriptures and are now considered inspired.

  For example, it is quite clear that Jehovah is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

  Nope. It is far from clear.

  the thousands of mss do not in any way create any doctrinal errors

  Man creates doctrines from his misunderstanding of the Bible.

  Third, these mss didn’t just appear in the 20th or 21st centuries.

  --Redundant statement, covered.

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
• 

  Frenchy

  Concerning the business of exegesis and eisogesis one would have to be very naïve indeed to suppose that the translator, however honest and honorable his intentions may be, can truly be totally objective at every turn and juncture. John Calvin once said: “"The first business of an expositor is to let his author say what he does say, instead of attributing to him what we think he ought to say." Is this what is happening? Do we see total objectivity or can we see some subjective intrusions into the text? To begin with, the expositor cannot tell us what the author says unless he fully understands himself precisely what the author is saying. After he has fully understood he must then translate (interpret) to us what that meaning is. The whole process just begs for errors.
  
  

  These hermeneutical principles have been applied in such a fashion that there is no question (except for those which come from the unregenerate) as to the doctrinal content of the Holy Scriptures. Understanding the Word of God can come only through divine enablement.

  That is simply not so. Calling people who do not agree with you names will not make you correct. There are plenty of questions. As for understanding through ‘divine enablement’ is concerned many people have been, by their own admission, ‘divinely enabled’ to understand things which are in direct contradiction to other ‘divine enablements’. Doctrine cannot be established through ‘divine enablement' unless you can demonstrate that you truly speak for and from God.

  BUT….!!! ‘Divine enablement’ along with our own predisposition and temperament and the leanings of our heart are what are responsible for whatever understanding of God we eventually achieve along with our consideration of the Sacred Scriptures. But that understanding is ours and ours alone. It may certainly be shared but it cannot be forced upon another either by physical coercion or by brandishing high sounding theological terms in an effort to obfuscate basic, common sense truths.

  Jesus summarized the entire Mosaic Law with just two simple laws or principles. The Jews had missed the purpose of the laws and we too miss the purpose of much of the Scriptures. Humans tend to look for doctrine and dogma where God intends none. We seek to explain in human terms what is divine in nature and all the while are obsessed in promoting as gospel what is at best a crude and ineffectual interpretation of what cannot be truly known in the first place and in the process come to believe our own fabrication as a divine revelation from God.

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
• 

  Frenchy

  we must remember that “…no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God” (2 Peter 1:21). Therefore, taking all of these things into consideration, we can know what was meant since God is the Athor and man is the “pen.”.

  Biblical prophecy is from God but the interpretation in the form of translations and otherwise is from men. Therefore taking THIS into consideration we cannot know what God meant unless he, himself reveals it to us. The confusion that exists among those who are seeking answers as to the meaning of these prophecies tells us that God does not seem to be eager to disclose this information as readily as some would have us believe. For there are many that try very diligently to convince us that God is revealing ‘secrets’ to man through them. History is wagging its finger at us for contemplating for even an instant that this is the case. Even the very authors (penmen) of Scripture demonstrated a remarkable ignorance of the things about which they wrote and now we are to believe that God has ‘Divinely enabled’ some to become his mediators, transmitters of the very word of God?

  We are deluding ourselves when we presume to “know what was meant’ and by so doing we close the door to further enlightenment. When we promote this pseudo-knowledge we encumber others who have the same right as we do to ask God for direction and to subsequently allow the holy spirit to ‘enable’ this person to the extent of God’s will on the matter. When we make dogmatic, doctrinal statements we stand between that person and God and assume the role of interpreter for God, we effectively become that person’s mediator. In the end the person begins looking to US for GOD’s answers and in the process God is ignored. In the end we find ourselves standing where God should be in that person’s eyes and heart and we become the idol that God so vehemently hates.

  There is only one mediator, one teacher, Christ. We are all brothers and our task is to encourage and upbuild one another and allow him to do his job. I fear we still have far to go before we are able to learn that simple truth. The temptation to take God’s place seems to be in irresistible one.

  Thank you for your comments, Hairdog. I have enjoyed reading and responding to them.

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
• 

  Hairdog1937

  Thanks for all of the responses! Only a few simple remarks are appropriate:

  1. Even if all men followed the principles of interpretation, they would (and do) still interpret major orthodox teachings differently. Those that do so fall into one of two categories: (1) the elect of God, or (2) the non-elect.

  2. Since Jehovah is the only Author of salvation, He sees to it that His elect are guided throughout their lives in His truth.

  3. Since Jehovah is God Almighty, there is none who can thwart His eternal and omnipotent plan. The non-elect will never see the truth.

  4. The final point is rather specific. For those of you who put your total trust into WTBTS eisegesis, you will fail to observe its deliberate violations of the koine Greek (the original language of the New Testament) and deliberate misquoting, or only partially quoting qualified Greek grammar scholars. This is why the NWT is anathema. The WTBTS has purposefully denounced Jesus Christ as Jehovah, our great God and Saviour.