When am I an apostate?

by Lilycurly 15 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Lilycurly

  My father talked to an elder yesterday, told him I was reading Crisis of Conscience, other apostate material and talking apostate with my mother...

  The Verdict: I am NOT consider an apostate, according to this elder.

  Now I'm confused...I thought just being here made me one, but the elder says I need to be talking badly about the society to others JWs to be one. Does that even make sense? Anyone has any written references from publications or others that clearly says that there are other motives then trying to convert other JWS??
• 

  Legolas

  Apostasy

  From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

  Apostasy (Greek ap?, apo, "away, apart", stas??, stasis, "standing") is the formal renunciation of one's religion. In a technical sense as used by sociologists without the sometimes pejorative connotations of the word, the term refers to renunciation and criticizing one's former religion. An old, narrow definition of this term refers to baptized Christians who leave their faith. One who commits apostasy is an apostate, or one who apostatises. Apostate is generally not a self-definition: very few former believers call themselves apostates and they generally consider this term to be a pejorative.

  Many religious movements consider it a vice, a corruption of the virtue of piety in the sense that when piety fails, apostasy is the result. However, most converts to a new religion can also be considered apostates from a previous belief. The word is also used to refer to renunciation of belief in a cause other than religion.

  Several religious movements punish apostates. Apostates may be shunned by the members of their former religious group [1]. This may be the official policy of the religious group or may happen spontaneously. Some religions may respond to apostasy by excommunicating the apostate.

  Some atheists and agnostics use the term "deconversion" to describe loss of faith in a religion. Freethinkers see it as gaining rationality and respect for the scientific method and not a loss. One of many possible reasons for this renunciation is loss of faith.

  The reliability of the testimonies of apostates is an important and controversial issue in the study of apostasy in cults and new religious movements.

  Beyond the word's religious connotation, an apostate can also be described as any individual who has renounced his or her beliefs, in particular his or her political beliefs.

  The difference between apostasy and heresy is that the latter refers to rejection or corruption of certain doctrines, not to the complete abandonment of one's religion.
• 

  Legolas

  In Christianity

  Christians often quote the prophecy in 2 Thessalonians about a coming apostasy:

  "Let no one in any way deceive you, for that day cannot come without the coming of the apostasy first, and the appearing of the man of sin, the son of perdition, who sets himself against;" (2 Thessalonians 2:3 NASB/WEY).

  The apostasy can alternatively be interpreted as the pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church. This is because apostasy means departure (translated so in the first seven English translations). Dr. Thomas Ice, Pre-Trib Perspective, March 2004, Vol.8, No.11.

  Signs of apostasy vary widely among many Christian denominations, the most common include:

  1. Denial of the Trinity and the deity of Christ;
  2. Denial of the deity of the Holy Spirit;
  3. Denial of moral absolutes, as found in the Bible;

  Some denominations quote Jude and Titus 3:10 saying that an apostate or heretic needs to be "rejected after the first and second admonition." In Roman Catholicism, apostasy is among the offences which bring automatic excommunication.

  See also Great Apostasy
• 

  AlmostAtheist

  Somebody will find it, but unfortunately I couldn't. The Society said back in the 1980's that merely not believing what they teach is apostasy. The culture among local JW's always seems to focus on teaching, though. So regardless of what the "official" position is on apostasy, unless you DO something apostate that can be construed as promoting it, they probably won't call it that.

  I put out Christmas decorations last year and was DF'd for apostasy. But the elders in my wife's old hall (where her JW parents attend) know that she doesn't buy "the troof" anymore, and nobody's come 'round looking to boot her.

  (Truth be told, SHE put the decorations up! I'm much too lazy for something like that. But don't tell anybody. If the angels find out, they'll tell the elders!)

  Dave
• 

  kwintestal

  From the elder's manual:

  Apostasy.

  Apostasy is a standing away from, a falling away, defec-
  tion, rebellion, abandonment; it involves teaching false
  doctrines, supporting or promoting false religion and its
  holidays or interfaith activities. (Deut. 13:13, 15; Josh.
  22:22, ftn.; Acts 21:21, ftn.; 2 Cor. 6:14, 15, 17, 18;
  2. John 7, 9, 10; Rev. 18:4)

  Those with sincere doubts should be helped, dealt with
  mercifully. (Jude 22, 23; w82 9/1 pp. 20-1;w80 8/1
  pp. 21-2)

  Apostasy includes action taken against true worship of
  Jehovah or his established order among his dedicated
  people. (Jer. 17:13; 23:15; 28:15, 16; 2 Thess. 2:9, 10)

  Persons who deliberately spread (stubbornly hold to and
  speak about) teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught
  by Jehovah's Witnesses are apostates.

  If it is learned that a person has taken up association with
  another religious organization, the matter should be inves-
  tigated, and if verified, a committee should be formed.

  If it is clearly established that the person has joined
  another religion and intends to remain with it, the

  94

  "Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock"

  ---

  elders would make a brief announcement to the congre-
  gation that such- one has disassociated himself. (w86
  10/15 p. 31 )

  Working secularly for a false religious organization could
  put one in a position similar to that of one preaching false
  doctrine. (2 Cor. 6:14-16)

  Celebrating a false religious holiday would be similar to
  performing any other act of false worship. (Jer. 7:16-19)

  The Bible condemns the following:

  Causing divisions and promoting sects.

  This would be deliberate action disrupting the unity
  of the congregation or undermining the confidence
  of the brothers in Jehovah's arrangement.

  It may involve or lead to apostasy. (Rom. 16:
  17, 18; Titus 3:10, 11 )

  The practice of spiritism. (Deut. 18:9-13; I Cor. 10: 21, 22; Gal. 5:20)

  Idolatry. ( I Cor. 6:9, 10; 10:14)

  Idolatry includes the possession and use of images
  and pictures that are employed in false religion.

  Kwin
• 

  AlmostAtheist

  Ah, here's the bit I was looking for. It's from this thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/77553/1.ashx

  This is just the text of a letter from the Society to all CO's and DO's, but I've seen scans of the letter. Keep in mind, this was shortly after the series of disfellowshipping's at Bethel, around the time Ray Franz was DF'd.

  Here's the relevant paragraph from the letter, exposing their wide definition of apostasy:

  Keep in mind that to be disfellowshiped, an apostate does not have to be a promoter of apostate views. As mentioned in paragraph two, page 17 of the August 1, 1980, Watchtower, "The word 'apostasy' comes from a Greek term that means 'a standing away from,' 'a falling away, defection,' 'rebellion, abandonment. Therefore, if a baptized Christian abandons the teachings of Jehovah, as presented by the faithful and discreet slave, and persists in believing other doctrine despite Scriptural reproof, then he is apostatizing. Extended, kindly efforts should be put forth to readjust his thinking. However, if, after such extended efforts have been put forth to readjust his thinking, he continues to believe the apostate ideas and rejects what he has been provided through the 'slave class, then appropriate judicial action should be taken.

  So, just believing something contrary to the teaching of the "slave" is grounds for df'ing for apostasy. Nice, eh?

  Dave
• 

  Balsam

  Perhas that Elder is on his way out too, or has doubts about the organization and does not support its views though he is still in. He is perhaps trying to stop your father from taking this farther to other elders. A wonderful Elder helped me find the courage to leave a very bad marriage that was abusive, at the same time warning me not to try to return any time soon. He was on my judical committee. I thank God for him and his wife each and every day for them giving me the courage to leave. My life has been totally turned around. There are caring Elders among JW's and they hate the problems they see in the congregations that are caused by the unreasonable rules enforced upon the sheep following the organization. Balsam
• 

  indoubt

  I think it really depends in what congregation you are part of, and what type of elders runs it... I think the P.O.'s attitude often reflects how the other elders will behave with silent dissenters.

  Some congregations like the one I am "assigned to" has a young, easy-going P.O. and the other elders seem to follow his steps... which really means that they don't really care what you read or believe in, as long as you don't talk about it to others.

  But other congregations are lead by elders who are constantly on the lookout, acting as they were the anti-Apostate Gestapo. If you are reading CoC and are in a congregation like this one, watch out!

  --indoubt
• 

  Lilycurly

  Hmm...thanks for all the references. So technically I should be DFed. Now, I know for a fact that my father is very happy about that elder's answer. He doesn't want me DFed, even though he knows I celebrate every holiday and am apostate.

  That elder is a very kindly man, so yes, he could be trying to protect me. But at the same time, I remember him being really pious and "spiritual". I don't know what to think.
• 

  jgnat

  It seems to me that your elder was being generous. Count your blessings. My JW husband treats "Apostate" as an adverb, as in "That is apostate thinking." Even thinking or reading beyond the Watchtower materials is well on the road to "Apostate". I think the strict definition requires a deliberate stepping away from a former belief.

  By all definitions, I am not "Apostate", as I have never abandoned my Christian Orthodox beliefs, nor have I ever joined then left the WTBTS. Although JW's do think that all of Christendom is "Apostate" for adopting the trinity.

  Farkel's "Handy JW 'Apostate' Glossary"

  "Apostate" - the most evil word in the JW lexicon. Worse than Satan, worse than demons. Say the word, and watch real TERROR well up in the eyes of a JW. (See "Internet")

  "Internet" - hiding out place for demons and apostates.

  "Demons" - real SCARY beings. They just can't wait to "get in" to your body and mess you up. A group of bad, bad, spirit entities which somehow love to inhabit used clothing, furniture, lawn chairs, and mostly, apostates, to name a few. They are frequently seen lurking around garage sales, and antique shops.

  From Watchtower Materials

  Does this go "beyond what is written"?

  *** it-1 p. 126 Apostasy ***

  APOSTASY

  This term in Greek (a·po·sta·si´a) comes from the verb a·phi´ste·mi, literally meaning "stand away from." The noun has the sense of "desertion, abandonment or rebellion." (Ac 21:21, ftn) In classical Greek the noun was used to refer to political defection, and the verb is evidently employed in this sense at Acts 5:37, concerning Judas the Galilean who "drew off" (a·pe´ste·se, form of a·phi´ste·mi) followers. The Greek Septuagint uses the term at Genesis 14:4 with reference to such a rebellion. However, in the Christian Greek Scriptures it is used primarily with regard to religious defection; a withdrawal or abandonment of the true cause, worship, and service of God, and hence an abandonment of what one has previously professed and a total desertion of principles or faith. The religious leaders of Jerusalem charged Paul with such an apostasy against the Mosaic Law. (bolding mine)

  *** w94 7/1 p. 12 At Which Table Are You Feeding? ***

  13 Jesus said: "By their fruits you will recognize them." (Matthew 7:16) What, now, are the fruits of the apostates and their publications? Four things mark their propaganda. (1) Cleverness. Ephesians 4:14 says that they are "cunning in contriving error." (2) Prideful intelligence. (3) Lack of love. (4) Dishonesty in various forms. These are the very ingredients of the food that is on the table of demons, all of which is designed to undermine the faith of Jehovah’s people.

  14 And there is another aspect. To what have the apostates returned? In many cases, they have reentered the darkness of Christendom and its doctrines, such as the belief that all Christians go to heaven. Moreover, most no longer take a firm Scriptural stand regarding blood, neutrality, and the need to witness about God’s Kingdom.

  (Note the lack of scriptural references. Where did the Watchtower learn the identifying marks of propoganda? Are all clever, intelligent people apostate? Who besides God can judge motivation, such as pride?)

  Merriam- Webster

  Main Entry: apos·ta·sy

  Function: noun
  Inflected Form(s): plural -sies
  Etymology: Middle English apostasie, from Late Latin apostasia, from Greek, literally, revolt, from aphistasthai to revolt, from apo- + histasthai to stand -- more at STAND 1 : renunciation of a religious faith
  2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : DEFECTION

  From Apologetics Index:

  Apostacy

  A falling away or departure from a previously maintained orthodox position (as in certain denominations which once held to orthodoxy but have rejected it). Adj.: "apostate."

  Definition from: " A Biblical Guide To Orthodoxy And Heresy Part One: The Case For Doctrinal Discernment" (an article from the Christian Research Journal, Summer 1990, page 28) by Robert M. Bowman.

  Also: renunciation of a previously held religious faith, or abandonment of a previous loyalty (e.g. a cult member who defects).

  Apostate

  An apostate is someone who abandons a previous loyalty (to a faith, movement, politcal party, etcetera).

  Cult defenders such as Massimo Introvigne , J. Gordon Melton , Lonnie Kliever , et. al., attempt to discredit the testimomy of apostates.

  However:

  Recent and less recent NRM catastrophes help us realize that in every single case allegations by hostile outsiders and detractors have been closer to reality than any other accounts. Ever since the Jonestown tragedy, statements by ex-members turned out to be more accurate than those of apologists and NRM researchers. The reality revealed in the cases of People's Temple , Rajneesh International , Vajradhatu, the Nation of Yahweh , the Branch Davidians , the Faith Assembly , Aum Shinrykio , the Solar Temple , or Heaven's Gate is much more than unattractive; it is positively horrifying. In every case of NRM disasters over the past 50 years, starting with Krishna Venta (Beit-Hallahmi, 1993), we encounter a hidden world of madness and exploitation in a totalitarian, psychotic, group, whose reality is actually even worse than detractors' allegations.

  Dear Colleagues: Integrity and Suspicion in NRM Research , by Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi