UK "shoot to kill" - mixed up justice

by Simon 58 Replies latest social current

• 

  Robdar

  Robdar, I thought you didn't feel that foreigners should have a critical opinion on domestic politics in America? Or is it differant when it comes to you criticising UK politics? After all your country had a terrorist attack and invaded two countries, we have a terrorist attack and shoot one innocent man. Obviously I have no problem with you criticising the UK but don't complain when people have something to say on your country's own imperialistic warmongering in return. In answer to your question, no a bullet is not likely to set off any explosive but of course that doesn't explain why the officer decided to shoot him eight times rather than the normal two or three, I rather suspect (and hope) that the officer had his weapon set to full auto by mistake.

  
  Caedes, I would like to know why you say that. I have never said that foreigners don't have a right to criticise domestic policies in America. What I don't like is when I am on holiday and a snotty foreigner stops me in the street and continues to critise even after I tell them that I agree. And they continue to criticise for 20 minutes ad naseum and then tops it off with a remark about rude Americans. See the irony? That's what I don't like.

  As in this story, why not get facts straight first before you make assumptions? BTW, the article we are discussing isn't a political story. It's a story of police brutality. Do we have that problem in the USA? You bet cha we do.
• 

  Robdar

  
  
  How could you be sure that he didnt have an explosive device on him? The police had to deal with him. Did he run into the underground after being told by police not to? YES!

  No. He was late for work and was told by somebody in civilian clothes to stop. The officers were "plain clothes" cops. If you were late for your train would you stop to chat with a tourist?

  Would gunfire have set the explosives off? Probably, but the police did not use gunfire here, a taser gun was used.

  So a taser gun was used. He was restrained. Why shoot him 8 times in the head? 8 times is not an accident.

  Although none of us were there, most of us have at least a slight clue as to what happened. I would love to see your answer to terrorists.

  Reminder: This guy was NOT a terrorist.
• 

  Caedes

  Robdar,

  I did spend some time abroad when Thatcher was in power and had my ear bent many a time regarding her policies, As a guest in someone elses country I didn't feel I should have criticised those people, they were expressing their own opinions in their own country. Why should a scotsman not express his opinions in his own country, he wasn't the foreigner you were.

  In much the same way my experience of America was that people were more than willing to argue with me regarding europeans all hating bush.

  So although you say you dont object to people expressing their opinion that's as long as it's not to you. Unfortunately the impression given by most Americans is that "hey we don't care what you think about us and we don't care about your little country". I think until America reigns in it's foreign policy and military spending, people will continue to have a problem with Americans generally, however unfair that is.

  In the meantime I still think it's hypocritical to express an opinion publicly on british domestic security issues without accepting that people are entitled to express their opinions to you on similar theme. I don't think I have made any assumptions here I just have an opinion based on your previous posts on the subject.
• 

  Robdar

  Robdar,

  I did spend some time abroad when Thatcher was in power and had my ear bent many a time regarding her policies, As a guest in someone elses country I didn't feel I should have criticised those people, they were expressing their own opinions in their own country. Why should a scotsman not express his opinions in his own country, he wasn't the foreigner you were.

  In much the same way my experience of America was that people were more than willing to argue with me regarding europeans all hating bush.
  So although you say you dont object to people expressing their opinion that's as long as it's not to you. Unfortunately the impression given by most Americans is that "hey we don't care what you think about us and we don't care about your little country". I think until America reigns in it's foreign policy and military spending, people will continue to have a problem with Americans generally, however unfair that is.
  Caedes,
  It's terrible that this happened to you while visiting our country. Especially about GWB. Most of us know that he's a moron. I do apologize on their behalf. Hey, I met a Scotsman from Aiberdeen just the other night at a pub. He's was very surprised that I knew immediately that he was from Scotland and not England. Funny how Americans always think that somebody with that sort of accent is from England. I promise you that we had a nice conversation and not once did politics come up. He was on holiday for the next 3 weeks and was loving his visit here. In the meantime I still think it's hypocritical to express an opinion publicly on british domestic security issues without accepting that people are entitled to express their opinions to you on similar theme. I don't think I have made any assumptions here I just have an opinion based on your previous posts on the subject.
  
  Think that it's hypocritical if you want to. You are going to anyway. But allow me one more time to explain to you that I don't mind anybody expressing their political opinions to me while abroad. It's when they keep on doing it even after the point is taken. It's when they keep following you down the street and wont leave you alone. It's when you are in a pub, trying to enjoy your dinner and they hear your accent and intrude upon your dining and drinking with their drunken nonsense. It's when you are outside the B&B you are staying at trying to enjoy a smoke and they hear your accent and descend upon you like vultures. Unfortunately this time last year, while in Scotland, it didn't happen just once or twice. It happened too many times to count. After a while it got old. Very old. Especially when I told them up front that I agreed with them. These people carried on and on, got into my personal space, and acted like it was all my fault. Really, there is no need to be rude about it. Especially since the last time I looked, you all are involved in our policies too. You are, afterall, our comrades in arms. Instead of jumping on foreigners who are visiting your country, why not do something political in your own country? Why not make changes instead of just complaining and rudely attacking Americans who are in your beautiful country trying to get away from all the crap going on in ours? It isn't politics. It's the rudeness. The personal rudeness. And if you think what you think from reading a couple of recent posts that I made regarding the way I was treated in Scotland, and how rude they all were, then you don't know my history on this board. On this forum and others, I have never minded anybody saying what they have to say about the politics in this country. Heck, I usually agree with them. Again, why don't you ask instead of assuming? I hardly think that talking about how rude the effing Scots were on my last visit is expressing an opinion that nobody but Americans have a right to criticize my country. Criticize away but give me a break when I am trying to enjoy my afternoon tea in Glasgow. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/43623/1.ashx http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/14/48842/1.ashx http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/40385/1.ashx http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/41866/1.ashx I hope you have an enjoyable weekend.
• 

  Sam the Man

  Why the stress? Americans are the first ones to tell the Brits to 'butt out' when we discuss American politics. Myself I have no problem with any nationality discussing it.
• 

  Caedes

  Robdar,

  My first point would be that I have made no assumptions about your politics, what your politics are is beside the point.

  The fact that someone was rude to you whilst you were visiting their country is unfortunate and as I stated before unfair (especially considering your political persuasion) but it is still entirely someone's right to express their views to you, however unwelcome, in their own country even if you are on holiday.

  As I said before there is a definite perception that most Americans believe that no foreigner should tell them how to run their country and that they are blinkered in their view of the world community and their role in it. I am sure you must have some idea how frustrating it is to have your home subsumed by a foreign culture and mass corporate commercialisation, but people in europe have no where to voice that frustration in any meaningful way. Which is why I think you have had the experiences that you have had, people are scared of your country. Does that excuse them their rudeness? Well I guess we would have to agree to differ regarding that, but please remember that you may disagree with your countries policies but we have to live under the shadow of American military dominance, which is quite a difference.

  Am I doing anything about it politically? Yes

  Should you expect your average scotsman (in a pub!) to respect your privacy? that's a bit like expecting a herd of stampeding rhinos to go round instead of through...(no offence to the scottish honestly!)
• 

  Robdar

  Should you expect your average scotsman (in a pub!) to respect your privacy? that's a bit like expecting a herd of stampeding rhinos to go round instead of through...(no offence to the scottish honestly!)
• 

  hillbilly

  
  So..the UK has bad cops too? Thousands of Federal, State and local officers carry thousands of weapons in the US , 24/7. We hardly (statisticly speaking) ever draw those weapons, much less discharge them. 90% of the peace officers in this country will work 30 years and never draw a weapon unless to train with it or clean it. Police deal with situations much more tense than chasing a man onto a train every day... and most encounters never make the news..no one gets hurt and the bad guy is taken into custody with little fanfare.

  Maybe the UK doesnt train their officers in the arts and skills needed to aprehend suspects correctly. Put an poorly trained officer in a situation, especially in a country where the tactical use of firearms is odd, and mistakes are bound to happen.

  Human nature being what it is...mistakes will be buried... as it appears in this story.

  It's a shame that the 1% make the news. The suspect should have stopped. I may have shot him myself.

  ~Hill
• 

  Reefton Jack

  Hillbilly brings out an interesting point regarding the police and the carrying of firearms:

  -In the USA, where all police officers carry guns, 90% of them will never ever have to even draw the weapon from its holster.

  - In New Zealand (and I suspect in the UK as well), where police do not as a matter of routine carry guns; most will at some time in their career have to use one.

  I can't speak for the UK, but the skills of the NZ cops with guns is close to abysmal (that from a relative, who used to be a firearms instructor at the Police Training Academy).

  Most police having to at some point in their career use a firearm, yet most having little or no skills in their use - sounds like a certainty that screw-ups will occur!

  Jack.