by Shining One 369 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
If everyone was color-blind to the color green, green would still exist. And if I was the only one who could see it, what would science say?
science would still be able to determine that it exists! this is where your argument falls apart, unless you have more up your sleeve.
gamma rays. infrared. etc etc etc, all the things we know exist, and we can't see. thanks to religious people? erm, no. thanks to science.
TS
In terms of evolution, different is not always better. Right?
in most of the world, especially the west, it doesn't matter anymore. we survive whether we are fit or not.
TS
TS: you assert the primacy of your belief that it actually exists.
To be fair, I only asserted that I actually perceive it. Everyone else has been insisting that I show proof and I have been saying repeatedly that what they ask is impossible. I offered the analogy, and it is a good one, of a color-blind man. He can see blue, he can see red. He gets the concept of color, but green isn't real to him.
See where the analogy leads you. At one time in human history we humans were much more spiritual and much less materialistic. Suppose we have bred out what used to be there prior to discovery of the Scientific Method (the ultimate in materialism).
Suppose everyone was color-blind to green, but LittleToe could see it. Does green exist? Certainly. Could he prove that to you? Would he be wise to talk openly about what he saw?
No.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
What color is a gamma ray? An x-ray?
I said you wouldn't believe the color exists, whether you could detect the existence of the spectrum or not. He would be considered delusional.
OldSoul
I read and commented on your post Oldsoul. I would suggest quoting my third paragraph along with my second because it addresses that reality is not perspective like you agree with it and also took it a step further into saying that your implication that this lack of perspective judging reality does not automatically support your stance. You can suggest that our perspectives does not allow us to see this extra dimension, however in reality it just isn't there unless there is some concrete proof to suggest otherwise.
Since I feel that I have somewhat explained my post better than it was before I would really enjoy an answer to my statement, "Explain how it is demonstrable to you Oldsoul or whoever else wants to contribute."
Since reading your last post I finally realise that it's more perception and preceiving for you than actually being able to provide proof. I respect that entirely, because many individuals would try to find anything and everything to support their claim that is mainly just perception and preceiving. However, (and I mean no hostility or offensiveness to the statement coming up.) Why should your preceiving matter outside of your emotions and perspective? How is it contributing to reality and how is it relevent when it is mostly perception. (just again no offense so sorry if it seems that way).
oldsoul,
To be fair, I only asserted that I actually perceive it.
that's fine. but again, what are your motives? what are your motives for trying to objectify what you have already admitted to be subjective?
I offered the analogy, and it is a good one, of a color-blind man. He can see blue, he can see red. He gets the concept of color, but green isn't real to him.
i clearly get your analogy. the analogy that i offered up shows that in this context, your analogy for color is not that good.
what would you say to the human who could not see gamma rays? that there is something wrong with him? come on!
At one time in human history we humans were much more spiritual and much less materialistic.
when?
when we were hunting and gathering? when we were being torn apart by saber-tooth tigers? when we were dying at 30 from old age and disease?
it's pretty obvious that spirituality was there to take the edge off the harsh reality of life. that when uncle oog-ug was torn apart by a saber-toothed tiger, that it was not all for naught. that there is no reason to feel so sad about the loss, he's in a better place now that he earned entrance to. "oh, wait! i can hear uncle oog-ug talking to me. he says take another hoot on the pipe and watch out for saber-tooth tigers!"
Suppose everyone was color-blind to green, but LittleToe could see it. Does green exist? Certainly. Could he prove that to you? Would he be wise to talk openly about what he saw?
No.
like gamma rays and infrared, he could find a way to prove it to the rest of us. like a scientist who sees something in the numbers on paper, and then sets out to prove his hypothesis, LT could boldly show that green exists although none of us can see it.
from what i can tell, LT is not willing to try the same with jesus. although if he could, it would change the world over night.
What color is a gamma ray? An x-ray?
I said you wouldn't believe the color exists, whether you could detect the existence of the spectrum or not. He would be considered delusional.
oldsoul, it doesn't matter what you are talking about! you are talking about the reality of certain things that people cannot see. i point out that science, NOT religion, helps us see these things, like gamma rays. this means that your analogy does not hold up, since even if we were all blind, we could still determine if there was a color spectrum or not. how? via science of course!
so far, we know there are things we cannot see that are indeed real. we are still waiting for any sign of interaction from the spirit realm. unless you have one to offer up for crucifixion? it may initially be batted around. but ultimately, if it is real, like the color green and gamma rays, science will come out on your side.
TS
Daunt: Why should your preceiving matter outside of your emotions and perspective?
I don't remember ever saying it did matter outside of my emotions and perspective. Except that, my purpose in this discussion forum is to discuss emotions, perspectives, and even the source of these. So, when I discuss my emotions, perspectives, and their source it is a little disconcerting to have people chiming in to the effect that I am deluded or delusional just because they have never experienced what I have experienced and do not share my perspective.
I hope you can understand why that might be the case. I do not ask you to agree with my perspective, I ask that you respect it as honestly arrived at and honorably spoken from. Ultimately whether you choose to respect my perspective is up to you. It is widely divergent from yours, but that doesn't make me better or worse than you. I just disagree with you. I don't think you are delusional.
You mentioned that you read my post and THEN realized what I was writing. That means your initial responses were from a position of...we have a name for that..oh, yes, a position of prejudice. Misplaced it seems. Perhaps you underestimated me, or perhaps you overestimated yourself, or a mix of the two.
As to "belief" in dimensions in addition to 3s·1t, modern theoretical physics wouldn't be getting very far without it. Belief in these dimension are well founded in the mathematics of several specialties within theoretical physics. Check it out, if you don't believe me.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
When you mean that I read your last post I did not mean the one I was replying to, but the one that came up right before I posted my post. The post I was replying to did not mention anything about your belief having no proof to back it up. I was too busy typing my post to realise the few posts from Tetra and you that were posted while I was typing.
And sorry if it seemed that I implied that you said your position mattered outside of your mind. It was meant more of an continuation of the conversation rather than critique of what you have said. And I don't think I refered to your beliefs as delusional, I might have said it sorry if I have. But overall I feel that I have not been totally clear on my position (the many posts of "What I mean" after you repy to one of my early posts) and I am sorry for that. I do not feel that your viewpoint is specifically delusional, however just not totally compatible with human kind's current understanding about the reality around us, that's all.
And oh believe me, extra dimensional activity is a big past-time study of mine. It is your extra dimensional activity that I am calling suspect to.
Daunt,
If by "human kind's current understanding about the reality around us" you are referring to the consensus perception of the majority of scientists, I agree. If by humankind you mean "humankind" and not "scientists" then I am afraid you are very mistaken. My view is much more in keeping with the view of humankind than your expressed view is. The consensus view of science on the subject God is only in the majority within its own cloisters, I'm afraid.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
When I say humankind I mean the accumulation (mostly scientists) of demonstratable evidence of reality. Not preception. Eh I should say scientists but even non-scientists can test reality and whatnot.
