How do you explain bible prophecies?

by ithinkisee 42 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Catholic_Apologist

  Hey everybody!

  I think prophecy in the Bible isn't so much a matter of foresight (athough there is a certain element of this), as it is a matter of insight.

  That said, I do agree to some extent with some of the more skeptical posts about certain people retroactively applying historical events to Scripture in order to show fulfillment of prophecy. Especially with the book of Revelation, since most modern readers don't relate to and understand the distinctive form of Jewish apocalyptic literature.

  However, I do think that the Bible does have some valid examples of foresight that can be convincingly demonstrated.

  One particularly interesting field I've been looking into is typology (the study of how Old Testament texts may foreshadow New Testament events). An example is the story of the sacrifice of Isaac, found in Genesis 22.

  Some similarities between Isaac and Jesus: 1. both are called only, beloved sons. 2. Both ride on an ass on their way to the place of sacrifice. 3. Both have a discussion with their father about the coming trial. 4. Both carry the wood of the sacrifice on their own shoulders up a mountain. 5. Abraham tells his servants that "we will worship and then return to you" (Gen. 22:5) which indicates that he believes his son will somehow rise from the dead. 6. Abraham tells his son that "God will provide Himself the sheep for the holocaust" (Gen 22:8), which to Christians foreshadows Jesus, the lamb of God. Christians believe that God Himself is the sheep for the holocaust. 7. Both Isaac and Jesus were bound and lead off to their place of execution. 8. Abraham sacrificed a ram in place of his son (Gen 22:13). His statement that God would provide a lamb for the holocaust is fulfilled in Jesus. Furthermore, Christians believe that Jesus is offered in place of sinful humanity. 9. The ram's head is surrounded by thorns, much as Jesus was crowned with thorns. 10. Abraham names the place "On the mountain the Lord Himself will see to it. Early Church Fathers testify that this place is the same as Golgotha. 11. Abraham was willing to sacrifice his only son for God. God did not accept this sacrifice, but instead, in His infinite love, offers His Son as a sacrifice for Abraham, Isaac, and all of us :)

  The story of the sacrifice of Isaac comes into sharper focus when it is understood as speaking prophetically about Jesus. Now, I can understand how a sceptic might say that the similarities are applied retroactively. However, this is just one example of typology in the Bible. When taken together, the many examples of foreshadowings of Jesus in the Old Testament present, in my mind, converging and convincing evidence that God slowly revealed His plan for humanity through the Old Testament Scriptures.

  In St. Luke's story of the disciples on the road to Emmaus, Jesus goes back through the books of Moses and interprets for the disciples everything that refered to the Christ (Lk. 24:27). The disciples hearts were burning within them as Jesus opened the Scriptures for them. Modern disciples experience much the same thing when their eyes are opened to the beauty of God's plan for His people.

  Take care everybody, and God bless you all!

  Brian (a.k.a. Catholic Apologist)
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  googlemagoogle

  erm.. can you name one prophecy in the OT that points to jesus? can you show me one detailed prophecy that was written in advance at all?
  
  even if - if a fulfilled prophecy would make the bible "true", would a unfulfilled prophecy make the bible "false"? because i know a lot of prophecies that never became reality.
  
  ithinkisee, add this page to your bookmarks: www.skepticsannotatedbible.com - there's a special section for "prophecy".
  
  you may always want to take a look at members.aol.com/ckbloomfld
  
  or better yet: www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/prophecy.html
  
  and another really interesting thing, ithinkisee, which helped me a lot: talk to a jew about prophecies that are supposed to be fulfilled by jesus. this is so interesting and eye-opening. make sure you read this story, if you don't already know it, it might show you what i'm talking about: the messianic rooster - this sure is funny as hell.
  
  i just want to add one of my favourite misinterpretations of jesus-prophecies:
  
  Genesis 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
  
  this usually is applied to jesus by christians. however, there was no king in isarel back then, there were (supposedly) hundereds of years until the first israelite king appeared (at least according to the date many christians apply to this book) and he definately was not from the tribe judah. and we all learned that judah was not reigning until jesus supposedly came. the scepter departed from judah many times, when assur destroyed jerusalem for example, and later the scepter was taken away at all and never returned, when the babylonians came.
  
  additionally: later in samuel it is stated that jehovah doesn't even want a king for israel. now that's funny, aint it? what's the scepter for then?
• 

  googlemagoogle

  especially matthew had the "jehovah's witnesses syndrome" with prophecies. anything about jesus he linked to some OT text, prophecy or not. funny thing is, he even applies some prophecies that are not even in the bible.
  
  anything that happens to you today can be linked to some old bible text. probably also to some book of mormon or quran text. or bagavad gita text. or even to some shakespear text. how often did something happen to you that was similar to a movie you've seen? "wow, that's just like what happened to ... in ...". but is this really a prophecy?
  
  strange how scripture is interpreted that different to a movie.
• 

  Qcmbr

  leo.
  The Book of Mormon never mentions the revolutionary war - do you mean the Doctrine and Covenantes prophecy of the civil war that actually came true?
  
  12 I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina.
  13 It may probably arise through the slave question. This a voice declared to me, while I was praying earnestly on the subject, December 25th, 1832.
  14 I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:
  15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty–five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.
  16 I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face.
  17 I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.
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  Mulan

  .................and the idea that prophecies have more than one fulfillment is nonsense. Think of the word "fulfillment". What exactly does that mean?
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  Legolas

  How do you explain Nostradamus's?
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  Joel Wideman

  Qcmbr, on July 14, 1832, Congress passed a tariff act that South Carolina declared null and void. President Andrew Jackson put the U.S. army on alert and the United States expected war in 1832. D. & C. 87 (where the prophecy is made) is dated December 25, 1832. Almost 20 years later, there were again rumors of a civil war brewing, and the LDS Church revived this prophecy. Anybody living in that time period, if told a civil war was coming, would not have been impressed.
  Further, it was prophecied "And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place. For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations." But war did NOT "pour out upon all nations".
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  Narkissos

  Following on Leolaia's and Mulan's comments:

  The only "prophecies" which can be safely labeled as true prophecies (i.e, not ex eventu) are those which were not fulfilled.

  And those are the ones which beg for reinterpretation by later readers: in a believer's mind, since they were not fulfilled, they have to be fulfilled later. In turn, even the "fulfilled prophecies" (actually ex eventu) are embarked in the process of reinterpretation and "greater fulfillment".

  There is still a lot of obscure stuff in the Bible for wannabe prophets/interpreters to dig in.
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  Hellrider

  Narkissos: Do you think Matthew 24.34 should be considered as one of these unfulfilled prophecies?
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  heathen

  Yah I think the WTBTS went overboard with that king of the north and south stuff .It's clearly an end time prophesy .I wouldn't have a problem discussing it as such . Once you throw in a bunch of battles that had nothing to do with the end of the world and the messianic kingdom then you lost me and it's nothing but pure speculation. I still believe the bible is inspired .