More bones of hobbit-sized humans discovered

by zagor 24 Replies latest social current

• 

  PopeOfEruke

  Yeh, Bones for one thing, but they also bought the DVD.
  Pope
• 

  FlyingHighNow

  What is human? We are human.

  1. Having or showing those positive aspects of nature and character regarded as distinguishing humans from other animals.

  This is what human means to me.
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  googlemagoogle

  And they can determine all this from a jawbone, arm bone and other bones? What other bones?
  
  that's a good question. as i'm too lazy to research at the moment, i'll look forward to tetragod's explaination :-)
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  zagor

  And they can determine all this from a jawbone, arm bone and other bones? What other bones?
  
  
  that's a good question. as i'm too lazy to research at the moment, i'll look forward to tetragod's explaination :-)

  
  It is really not that difficult. Knowing the proportions of jaw bone we can easily estimate size of the head knowing the size of the head we can then see proportionally what size of the boody would be required to hold such a head.
  
  here is similar article of how it is usually done (You can read intro but for the paper you'll have to pay)

  http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1475-4983.00189?cookieSet=1 If I'm not wrong a head is something like 1/7 - 1/10 of the mass of the body in mammals
• 

  FlyingHighNow

  And they can determine all this from a jawbone, arm bone and other bones? What other bones?
  
  
  that's a good question. as i'm too lazy to research at the moment, i'll look forward to tetragod's explaination :-)
  
  
  It is really not that difficult. Knowing the proportions of jaw bone we can easily estimate size of the head knowing the size of the head we can then see proportionally what size of the boody would be required to hold such a head.

  I'm not asking about size of head, brain, etc. I am asking how they determine from a jaw and arm bone and "other bones" that these creatures could speak and walk upright. Lot's of speculation going on down there. Lot's of speculation and wishful thinking. Unless of course they also found artifacts that show the "hobbits" were that advanced. I still want to know what other bones. Leg bones? Upright pelic/hip bones and ball and socket joints?
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  chrissy

  i know exactly what you are saying, FHN. seems like we should also be hearing about how they've found stone tool, some sort of preserved art, further physical evidence to back up the claims that these pygmies were homo status.
  
  i'm thinking they are comparing the skeletal remains to that of early homo erectus vs. smaller brained homo sapiens and coming up with reasoning under these, or similar methods, in determining the "hobbits" level of development based on the development of others. also, consider my first thought....
  
  they were either advance enough in mobility to build water craft and get to indonesia, or, don't get me wrong ... i realize parallel evolution theories exist, so another, more credible thought is that homo erectus reached the island in question as the early human ancestor, erectus, and began to adaptively evolve within their isolated surroundings.
• 

  upside/down

  we are part of the same genus: homo.

  So you're telling me I'm a "homo"...

  I feel funny now...

  u/d(of the if I gotta be a "homo"...I choose to be a lesbian class)
• 

  tetrapod.sapien

  I'm not asking about size of head, brain, etc. I am asking how they determine from a jaw and arm bone and "other bones" that these creatures could speak and walk upright. Lot's of speculation going on down there. Lot's of speculation and wishful thinking. Unless of course they also found artifacts that show the "hobbits" were that advanced. I still want to know what other bones. Leg bones? Upright pelic/hip bones and ball and socket joints?

  FHN,

  before you get too excited about all the "speculation", you should just pull up some articles online to learn more about it.

  hypothesis is a form of educated speculation. however the difference between this and general speculation (you know, the type related to the supernatural) is that if the hypothesis is sound, it will come in line with future finds. so far, the hypothesis that h.floresiensis was bipedal has had predicitive value. meaning that subsequent finds have supported the hypothesis that it walked upright. and at that point, it becomes less and less of a speculative hypothesis, and more of a predictive hypothesis.

  paleoanthropologists do not need a full skeleton to determine if a hominid had walked upright or not.

  CT scans of femurs in humans and chimps show a difference in the thickness of the lower and upper parts of the bones. chimps and gorillas have pretty much equal denisty at the top and bottom, while humans, and their bipedal ancestors and cousins have greater density at the bottom, and lighter at the top. NG explains it well for a fossil found in kenya of a different bipedal ancestor/cousin:

  http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/09/0902_040902_upright_hominid.html

  Now, for the first time, we have solid evidence dated to six million years ago of an intermediate creature between humans and the apes that demonstrated upright posture and bipedalism," said Robert Eckhardt, a developmental-genetics and evolutionary-morphology researcher at Pennsylvania State University. "And the dating of this fossil is unusually secure."

  Morphology is a branch of biology that deals with the form and structure of animals and plants.

  The fossil was found nearly four years ago in Kenya's Lukeino Formation. The thigh bone is about the same size as a chimpanzee's, but CT scans of the bone's interior show that its owner had adapted to walking on two legs.

  "In present-day chimps and gorillas, the thicknesses in the upper and lower parts of that bone are approximately equal. In modern humans, the bone on top is thinner than on the bottom by a ratio of one to four or more," Eckhardt said.

  The ratio in this fossil is one to three, suggesting a biomechanical transition to upright posture and bipedalism, the researchers say.

  and then there are the other anatomical differences between hominids who are knuckle-walkers, and hominids who are/were bipedal:

  http://www.stanford.edu/~harryg/protected/chp15.htm

  In chimpanzees the thighbone does not slope inward to the knees as much as humans do which means that the feet are normally placed well apart. The gluteal abductors are not highly developed. During bipedal walking the animal is forced to shift its upper body substantially from side to side with each step so to bring the center of gravity over the weight bearing leg.
  
  Chimpanzee anatomy is a compromise between an adaptation to tree climbing and terrestrially (knuckle walking). Human anatomy is fully terrestrial adaptation. The suite of anatomical adaptations that underlie human bipedalism is extensive and includes a curved lower spine, a shorter, broader pelvis, and an angled femur, which are served by reorganized musculature lengthened lower limbs and enlarged joint surface areas.

  • An extended knee joint.

  with regards homo floresiensis, John Hawks, Anthropologist comments on their bipedality:

  http://johnhawks.net/weblog/fossils/flores/liang_bua.html

  Is LB1 an ape?

  LB1 is certainly not an ape. The pelvis and femur are entirely compelling in their adaptations to obligate bipedality. The skull possesses no unique similarities with the only great ape in the region, the orangutan. Although the size of the brain is consistent with an orangutan or other ape, the anatomy of the specimen rules out this hypothesis.

  and from Nature:

  http://www.nature.com/news/2004/041025/full/041025-3.html

  The skeleton shows a similarly strange mixture of features. The hip-bone resembles those of the pre-human African species known as australopithecines (meaning 'southern apes'). But the legs are slight, and enough detail has been preserved to show that this creature definitely walked on two legs, as we do.

  on the different bones found. note that parts of a pelvis, and leg bones have been found:

  http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/flores.html

  The most complete floresiensis fossil, LB1, consists of an almost complete skull and a partial skeleton consisting of leg bones, parts of the pelvis, hands and feet, and some other fragments. LB1 was an adult of about 30, probably female judging by the pelvis. Males could have been larger, though the other fossils found so far indicate only individuals about the same size as LB1.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_floresiensis

  The type specimen for the species is a fairly complete skeleton and near-complete skull of a 30-year-old female, nicknamed Little Lady of Flores or Flo, about 1 m (3 ft 3 in) in height. Not only is this a drastic reduction compared to H. erectus, it is even somewhat smaller than the three million years older ancestor Australopithecines, not previously thought to have expanded beyond Africa. This tends to qualify H. floresiensis as the most "extreme" member of the extended human family. They are certainly the shortest and smallest.

  at any rate, paleoantropologists are able to compare the skull and body bones to other hominids and apes, both alive and extinct, to determine the highest likelihood of ancestry and bipedalism.

  recently from nature:

  For example, the humerofemoral index of 85.4 is outside the range of variation for H. sapiens, but is the same as AL 288-1 A. afarensis, and midway between the indices for apes and humans. The more complete left ilium [pelvic bone] also indicates that the pelvis is flared antero-laterally, consistent with an australopithecine-shaped thoracic region. Body proportions of LB1 are the same as AL 288-1 A. afarensis, but differ from all other hominins for which they are reliable data, including H. erectus (Morwood et al. 2005:1016).

  so, it could turn out that they are not even in the same genus as us. however, the species that h.floresiensis does most closely resemble so far is australopithecine, which was bipedal too.

  so there you have it. they're much closer morphologically to bipedal apes like us, than with orangutans and chimps with whome our common ancestor was quite long ago, about 5 million years.

  TS
• 

  tetrapod.sapien

  homo:

  any living or extinct member of the family Hominidae characterized by superior intelligence, articulate speech, and erect carriage

  And they can determine all this from a jawbone, arm bone and other bones? What other bones?

  other anthropological finds, with greater detail, show a correlation between bipedalism, tool making (and use including fire), intelligence and comunication for hunting and gathering. tools and bipedalism have been found in flores. a hypothesis with predictive value is that they had intelligence and communication. TS
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  chrissy

  oh. thank you, ts.
  
  that is sort of what i was trying to say only you've gone in typical ts fashion and backed it up...with facts.
  
  lots of good facts. facts are not my forte. they can be so... pretentious. hehe. ;o)