creationism in the us of a

by googlemagoogle 91 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Big Dog

  but, lets talk about depression and anger and ratios while we're at it. sure, no criminal is going to say i raped the lady next door because jesus told me to do it. but, where does his anger and sexulal frustration come from? and what role does an anthropocentric belief system play in such a person, if even privately OR subconsciously? i don't know, but i also see a lot of angry and depressed religious people. i wonder if the ratio of angry and depressed religious people within a religious population, is the same as the number of angry and depressed atheist people within an atheist population? i don't know. but i suppose it is determinable. i basically just created a falsifiable hypothesis that is testable.

  Tetra, let's write up a grant proposal and do a study, it sure as hell beats working for living. You raise a very interesting point there about the anger and repressed emotions, etc. I would be the first to agree that a fair amount of people go off the rails due to those forces, probably the other half are just animals. Yeah, I am reading athiest websites, I don't have my head in the sand, in my ass sometimes maybe but not in the sand, i am open to checking it all out before I put my money down on the pass line. I am still working out my whole world view which like I told you before, has been on the shelf for a long time as I worked out the practical issues of my life. Now that I have those sorted out I'm working on the philosophical stuff or whatever the heck you want to call it.

  (full-time school + full-time work = full-time zombie

  Doogie, been there done that and it sucked, hard. But trust me, eventually it will be over, just when you are doing it that day never seems like it is going to get there. I'm sure the topic of where morals, ethics, conscience has been done before, by people better than me, so I'll just shut the frick up and go read some philosophy and anthropology books.
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  doogie

  Doogie, been there done that and it sucked, hard. But trust me, eventually it will be over, just when you are doing it that day never seems like it is going to get there.

  man, i hope you're right. everytime i close my eyes, all i see are scantrons and skinned cats just kind of floating around. (it's crazy...i'm not even in biology this semester...).

  nah, i'm actually enjoying it, but it doesn't leave a lot of time for, well, pretty much anything . oh well...

  talk to you later
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  FlyingHighNow

  who do you think 99% of ID-ots are?

  
  

  
  Tetra, you're exaggerating here. Christians aren't the majority religion on this earth. They are a minority. "ID-ots" looks awfully close to the word "idiots." You know you can't back up a figure like that, now don't ya?

  I figure that, whoever it is that is responsible for the material universe, probably hates, detests and would love to see the end of RELIGION.

  Evolutionists on this thread: you are intelligent beings and yet you aren't religious. Why do you insist that an intelligent designer(s) has to be religious or involve RELIGION? You are intelligent and you don't insist on religion.

  There are classes in public highschools that present world religions in an unbiased way. The kids learn about them and take away from the classes what they will. The classes are for the purpose of informing children about different religions.

  There can be classes about the origin of life where Evolution and Intelligent Design, which to me is not the same as creationism, and creationism can be presented in a similar curriculim to World Religions. The kids learn what different people believe and they do what they want with that information. World Religions class is taught in public schools and doesn't violate church/state principles. You can do the same thing with the origin of life. Personally, I don't care what they teach as long as it's not presented as fact and shoved down the kids' throats. If they stop teaching evolution it won't bother me. If they never teach creationism or intelligent design it won't bother me either.
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  googlemagoogle

  "ID-ots" looks awfully close to the word "idiots."
  
  LOL!
  
  well, i've thought about it, and if it's not 99% xians who want ID in school, then i'm all for teaching it, but in all it's variety.
  
  for example:
  
  in the beginning the big manitu created the human race. he prepared the paste, put it in the oven and waited. but he waited too long, and the humans came out all black. he prepared another paste, put it in the oven and said: "i'll not wait too long this time", but he opened the oven too soon, so the humans came out all white. finally he prepared another paste, put it in the oven, and this time he was waiting not too long and not too short, just right. the humans came out in a beautiful shade of brown. this is where the different colors come from.
  
  (if anyone can read racism there, it's not my invention, ant less racist than the bible actually)
  
  ok, tell those stories to the children. if you want to sell this as "science"? i don't know...
• 

  funkyderek

  FlyingHighNow:

  There can be classes about the origin of life where Evolution and Intelligent Design, which to me is not the same as creationism, and creationism can be presented in a similar curriculim to World Religions. The kids learn what different people believe and they do what they want with that information. World Religions class is taught in public schools and doesn't violate church/state principles. You can do the same thing with the origin of life. Personally, I don't care what they teach as long as it's not presented as fact and shoved down the kids' throats. If they stop teaching evolution it won't bother me. If they never teach creationism or intelligent design it won't bother me either.

  What about different classes about the shape of the Earth, flat or round? They could teach both sides and let children make up their own minds. Nothing religious about it, no church/state separation violations, nothing shoved down anyone's throat. Or a class where acceleration due to gravity is taught alongside the belief that heavy objects fall at a faster rate? A lot of people believe the latter, so shouldn't it be taught in schools? What about medicine versus prayer? Oops, might be a church/state problem. Instead of prayer, call it communicating with the Intelligent Designer.
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  Big Dog

  Funky, you really need to come to grips with the idea that people believe in God, always have, probably always will, and until they show in a lab how the universe originated, or for that matter, how biological life originated people are going to see God as a viable option. I'm on the fence, this life, this world is just wierd enough that there really might be a God, I have no problem with that if people want to believe that.

  Seems to me we have done fine with a religious element in our society, science has progressed, we have developed complex societies, etc. I think the dangers of people thinking that God created the universe are greatly overstated.
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  funkyderek

  Big Dog:

  Funky, you really need to come to grips with the idea that people believe in God, always have, probably always will,

  That's not the issue at all. The issue is whether it is acceptable to pretend that there is some real dispute over evolution occurs, in order to surreptitiously push a religious agenda.

  and until they show in a lab how the universe originated, or for that matter, how biological life originated people are going to see God as a viable option.

  People may always fill the areas of their ignorance with a god-of-the-gaps. That is no excuse for encouraging ignorance.

  I'm on the fence, this life, this world is just wierd enough that there really might be a God, I have no problem with that if people want to believe that.

  Nor do I. I have an issue with them lying about the evidence in order to push their belief system on innocent children.

  Seems to me we have done fine with a religious element in our society, science has progressed, we have developed complex societies, etc. I think the dangers of people thinking that God created the universe are greatly overstated.

  That's still not the issue. It doesn't matter whether God created the universe or not. Evolution still occurs. Believing in a god does not justify lying about this fact.
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  doogie

  Personally, I don't care what they teach as long as it's not presented as fact and shoved down the kids' throats.

  maybe it's just the school that i go to, but i feel bad for the way my professors often stand up there and present evolutionary theory with hushed tones and a hint of an apology. rightly so, they're challenged continually by certain students to "prove it" (whatver it may be that they are talking about). last night, someone asked if there was any proof of the evolutionary relationship between horses and rhinos. the prof answered it very well and the person that asked was satisfied.

  so, i think all the concern about shoving anything down kids' throats is kind of misplaced. more often than not, students start with a foundation of religion, not evolution. maybe it's different on a highschool level (it probably is, so i don't know how valuable my observations are...), but from i've oberserved, students are generally skeptical towards science until it's laid out completely. i think that's awesome. you SHOULD question everything. i'm just saying that from what i've seen, in the classroom, evolutionary theory is not shoved anywhere .
• 

  Big Dog

  to pretend that there is some real dispute over evolution occurs

  That's not completely true, the Vatican for example has stated that evolution appears to be very probable, the dispute is whether evolution is a purely natural phenomena or whether there was some control by something involved.

  People ;may always fill the areas of their ignorance with a god-of-the-gaps. That is no excuse for encouraging ignorance.

  Hmm, so belief in a God or even the possibility of a God equals ignorance, well there are some pretty brilliant ignorant people out there I guess as there are some pretty bright people that think there is a God. Even Carl Sagan when pushed would not discount the possibility of a God. But I think it equally ignorant to in one breath say, oh, we don't have all the answers yet, but God however is certainly not a possible answer.

  I have an issue with them lying about the evidence in order to push their belief system on innocent children.

  Children as much as I would like them to be totally innocent are not going to be, they are victims of propaganda from day one so I'm not going to weep about these innocents being bludgeoned with creationist propaganda. As I said above, science should be taught in science class, I have no problem with that, and it should be taught with the self correcting issue fully explained as well (hmm, self correcting, new light, sounds similar to me) so that they understand what they are taught today might not be what scientists believe 50 years from now.

  So I agree with you, evolution does occur, I don't think all people that believe in God deny evolution, certainly the largest single demonination the Catholic Church has supported the idea that evolution is indeed a "fact".

  But good grief, all this gnashing of teeth over somebody wanting to say, hey maybe God created everything via evlolution rather than, well, were not really sure how the whole thing got started, big freaking deal. I thought the ideal was exposing people to alternate views and letting them sort it out, isn't that what we preach here at the forum, read, think, expose yourself to everything, atheism, hinduism, naturalism, whatever and sort it out, but I guess that only applies in certain situations eh?
• 

  funkyderek

  Big Dog:

  That's not completely true, the Vatican for example has stated that evolution appears to be very probable, the dispute is whether evolution is a purely natural phenomena or whether there was some control by something involved.

  That is not the dispute that causes the problems. I have no problem with someone saying they think God started it all. I disagree, and believe there is no need to hypothesise such an entity, but freely admit that I cannot falsify such a hypothesis. However, those who claim that evolution has not occurred and does not occur are flat-out wrong (with the obvious proviso that a supernatural entity could have faked the evidence to make it look like evolution has occurred, in which case we can never know anything about anything).

  Hmm, so belief in a God or even the possibility of a God equals ignorance,

  That's not what I meant. You can tell because that's not what I wrote. What I wrote - and meant - was that "People may always fill the areas of their ignorance with a god-of-the-gaps." That does not mean I think they are ignorant for believing. It means that things they do not know can be filled in with the universal fix: "God did it." That has never proven to be a useful sentiment.

  Even Carl Sagan when pushed would not discount the possibility of a God.

  Nor do I. I even go further and don't discount the possibility of millions of gods.

  Children as much as I would like them to be totally innocent are not going to be, they are victims of propaganda from day one so I'm not going to weep about these innocents being bludgeoned with creationist propaganda.

  Children being taught nonsense when they should be learning science is very worrying. But, hell, it's not my country, they're not my kids. I'll try to step back and laugh at the absurdity of it all.

  As I said above, science should be taught in science class, I have no problem with that, and it should be taught with the self correcting issue fully explained as well (hmm, self correcting, new light, sounds similar to me) so that they understand what they are taught today might not be what scientists believe 50 years from now.

  The self-correcting mechanism of science bears only the most superficial resemblance to the "new light" of the WTS, as I'm sure you know. It's certainly a good idea to make students aware of the level of certainty of any ideas they are studying. This is important, primarily in history and science classes, where sometimes we have to piece together a plausible hypothesis based on whatever scraps of evidence we manage to find. But in fifty or a hundred or a thousand years time it will still be a fact that Henry VIII lived from 1491 to 1547; and it will still be a fact that evolution occurs.

  So I agree with you, evolution does occur, I don't think all people that believe in God deny evolution, certainly the largest single demonination the Catholic Church has supported the idea that evolution is indeed a "fact".

  Of course. The denial of evolution is, by and large, peculiar to American fundamentalists.

  But good grief, all this gnashing of teeth over somebody wanting to say, hey maybe God created everything via evlolution rather than, well, were not really sure how the whole thing got started, big freaking deal.

  Why do you continue to pretend that that is the issue in question?

  I thought the ideal was exposing people to alternate views and letting them sort it out,

  It's not a bad idea, and for issues over which there is some real disagreement, it's best to be aware of the various possibilities. This does not mean that mythology should get equal time in a science class with established scientific fact.

  isn't that what we preach here at the forum, read, think, expose yourself to everything, atheism, hinduism, naturalism, whatever and sort it out, but I guess that only applies in certain situations eh?

  Yes, it only applies in certain situations. In the situation where people with a particular religious agenda want to distort facts and feed their lies to naive youngsters, they should not be allowed to do so in a science class. That's what churches are for.