Posts by outbutnotdown

86

Suicide.... how do you view people who "attempt" it?

by outbutnotdown in

jw
friends

anybody who has read my other recent posts...... don't worry, this is absolutely not about me feeling that way... i'm very happy, thanks..... .

my roommate, however, had a friend who committed suicide a couple of weeks ago and she just broke up with her boyfriend and he was saying things similar to what the guy who committed suicide awhile back was saying just before he took his life.

it is freaking her out.

outbutnotdown

(((((((((((((((LyinEyes)))))))))))))))

Very Moving!!! It honestly brought tears to my eyes.... partly for you and partly for me.... very similar experiences you and I have had.

Sounds like you have gone through all the stages of recovery already. Good for you.

Brad

Edited to add:

LyinEyes,

It seems to me that you have been very honest with yourself about the whole unfortunate circumstance. You're damn right you had a right to be angry, but more importantly you've seen it through your mothers' eyes as well. IMHO, no one can be expected to do more than that.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

outbutnotdown

Why didn't God create Adam and Eve simultaneously? Why did he create Adam where Adam was capable of becoming lonely? God was certainly not very good at seeing the big picture, was he?

Brad

My first intelligent question ever and Gumby's trying to take credit for it.

Ozzie said:

Now then Grumbles, stop putting words in God's mouth! Where does it say that this was a new thought to God?

Cheers, Ozzie (accuracy in reporting class)

Ozzie,

What are you implying? That this was not a new thought, but that God PLANNED on Adam getting lonely and creating Eve was all part of the Master Plan? I've been lonely before and I don't think it is a PERFECT feeling, so could Adam have been perfect before Eve was created?

Brad (of the "I'll convert these Christians to agnosticism one of these days" class)

86

Suicide.... how do you view people who "attempt" it?

by outbutnotdown in

jw
friends

anybody who has read my other recent posts...... don't worry, this is absolutely not about me feeling that way... i'm very happy, thanks..... .

my roommate, however, had a friend who committed suicide a couple of weeks ago and she just broke up with her boyfriend and he was saying things similar to what the guy who committed suicide awhile back was saying just before he took his life.

it is freaking her out.

outbutnotdown

Flower,

Maybe we should focus less on helping the suicidal people and spend the time and the money SOLELY on the victims of suicide. They are truly the innocent ones in the matter.

I shouldn't have used the word SOLELY. I meant to emphasize the "less" part as far as the efforts put into helping the suicidal compared to the other people involved. It doesn't represent how I truly feel about people who do go to the depths of despair and contemplate, or succeed at suicide. I was trying to make the point that we tend to forget about the other people involved more than we should. Despite the fact that I have gone through this crazy sh*t, even I have found myself swayed towards believing that the families left behind are less than what they were before the suicide.

Thanks for the opinion, but no, I don't lump everybody who attempts suicide into that little box that you speak of. (I realize that my father was, unfortunately "crazy" as you say.) I think if you read the other posts that I have made you would have realized that, rather than picking on one word that I used. I feel for people who have been in that state. I was there once myself, and it's not only for that reason that I feel for them. It's the fact that I realized, no matter how BAD it seemed at the time, it would not be fair to "the other people" if I went through with it. Besides that, I learned that the hell that I was in was mostly created by myself.

I've learned to create heaven on earth...... and I'm very happy that through therapy I am in complete control of my state of mind, not other people or incidents that have happened in the past.

I will state though, that from your original post and the last one, you would still do well to consider a little more the "other people" involved. I'm not sure if you career is in that field or not, but you seem to rush to judgement a little quickly.

People who assume its a ploy or attention seeking stunt or manipulation simply have never really been there. Some people think they are so important that everything someone does must be about them. Their attitude is if someone tries to end their life it must be just to hurt me somehow. Thats just because most people cant comprehend feeling that bad. But it is possible to truly believe that it is the best thing for everyone.

Brad

86

Suicide.... how do you view people who "attempt" it?

by outbutnotdown in

jw
friends

anybody who has read my other recent posts...... don't worry, this is absolutely not about me feeling that way... i'm very happy, thanks..... .

my roommate, however, had a friend who committed suicide a couple of weeks ago and she just broke up with her boyfriend and he was saying things similar to what the guy who committed suicide awhile back was saying just before he took his life.

it is freaking her out.

outbutnotdown

Czar,

I feel for you. I don't know, but to me, the only for sure thing about life is life itself. I cherish it, respect it and try to make the most out of it, despite the obstacles thrown at us. I used to be, and sometimes still am one of the people you describe:

I sometimes think that the suicides are the smartest, bravest people on the planet... they looked into the abyss and shrugged indifferently. They took their ball and went home.

I am not completely against suicide. I think if they want to do it, they will find a way anyway, so why not let them? From what most peoples' opinions are they are beyond help other than helping themselves anyway. However, at what point do we lay the law down, so to speak, to prevent them from hurting others, especially the children?

Maybe we should focus less on helping the suicidal people and spend the time and the money SOLELY on the victims of suicide. They are truly the innocent ones in the matter.

Brad

10

Does extreme hardship tend to bring out the best in people?

by outbutnotdown in

jw
friends

i have been going through what can only be described as some extreme hardship lately.

some of my posts lately explain it.

my friends are surprised that i am dealing with it as well as i have been because, quite frankly i have never been considered to be a very patient person.

outbutnotdown

Corvin,

I can relate to your feelings. I can understand why you've done what you did. Despite other people questioning you..... sometimes even myself............. despite being in a similar situation to yours..... I think you have fought a brave fight. I believe that you will reap the rewards that you deserve.

Just remember that a lot of people who have made a big difference in the world weren't really recognized until after the fact. A lot of other people, quite frankly quit before reaping the reward of seeing the big picture and trusting in it. There was always a lot of criticism towards these people. From my personal experience, all we can do is trust our intuitions about what is the right thing. Sometimes we even have to defy what others perceive as "normal" to accomplish what, years later, people accept as gospel.

God, (or whoever) bless you Corvin. There have been and always will be people who question your tactics. It's your drive to achieve what is good and pure that will stand above the tactics.

Brad

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

outbutnotdown

Why didn't God create Adam and Eve simultaneously? Why did he create Adam where Adam was capable of becoming lonely? God was certainly not very good at seeing the big picture, was he?

Brad

86

Suicide.... how do you view people who "attempt" it?

by outbutnotdown in

jw
friends

anybody who has read my other recent posts...... don't worry, this is absolutely not about me feeling that way... i'm very happy, thanks..... .

my roommate, however, had a friend who committed suicide a couple of weeks ago and she just broke up with her boyfriend and he was saying things similar to what the guy who committed suicide awhile back was saying just before he took his life.

it is freaking her out.

outbutnotdown

Flower, you said:

People who assume its a ploy or attention seeking stunt or manipulation simply have never really been there. Some people think they are so important that everything someone does must be about them. Their attitude is if someone tries to end their life it must be just to hurt me somehow. Thats just because most people cant comprehend feeling that bad. But it is possible to truly believe that it is the best thing for everyone.

I'm sure there are a few nutcases out there who 'pretend' attempts just for attention from a loved one but that is not a suicide attempt. If we are talking about real attempts from people in real emotional pain..they should be helped.

I made a post on this topic yesterday about how my father "attempted" suicide when I was six and then told the family that if I hadn't "found" him, he would have taken more pills to definitely ensure that he died. I spent the next twelve years or so "saving" his life.

The reason I put the little "quotation marks" around certain words is because when I was about 21 I finally realized that he was, as you say, "a nutcase who pretend attempts just for attention from a loved one but that is not a suicide attempt."

It seems as though you expect people to be able to make an automatic determination of whether it is the real thing or fake. I know, at six I certainly didn't and it wasn't for any reason other than that I was six, for pete's sake. But even if I was 16 or 26 or 36, I'm not sure that I or other people should be able to just pass this off so easily as you suggest.

I think some of what you said is correct, however, the way that I read your comment you would do well to show a little more empathy to the other people involved in a suicide, either attempted or successful.

Brad

13

Watchtower Quote

by TowerWatch in

i'm trying to find the quote where it was stated in the watchtower that without the watchtower publications one could not come to a knowledge of the truth.

something like "if you read the studies in the scriptures for two years with out the bible you could learn the truth but if you read just the bible for two years they would lose the truth".

can anyone help.

outbutnotdown

I love that quote!!! Not because it has one ounce of truth to it, but because it is one of the most damning pieces of evidence that Russell was swaying people to close their minds and let him and the rest of his successors control their evey move.

What percentage of people, do you think are still JW's, that have actually read it? I hope I would not have stayed had I read it when I still was, but to be honest I probably would have.

Brad

10

Does extreme hardship tend to bring out the best in people?

by outbutnotdown in

jw
friends

i have been going through what can only be described as some extreme hardship lately.

some of my posts lately explain it.

my friends are surprised that i am dealing with it as well as i have been because, quite frankly i have never been considered to be a very patient person.

outbutnotdown

Steve,

I could never figure out what BTTT meant and I knew someday I would be informed of it...... it just happened to be, ironically, when I was guilty of it..... Back To The Top, right?

It wasn't ONLY about that. It was also just a minor way to demonstrate the bigger point I was trying to make.

Just some other points on the similar topic, religions have been formed based on major hardships. Christianity being the most obvious to me. Jesus was a martyr, (the ultimate hardship), which made him bigger than real life and turned him into a god-like person and eventually God, (from my opinion of how Christianity was formed.)

Although my original intent was to praise those who have overcome great obstacles, it has happened on a bigger than personal scale for milleniums. Even the JW's have that part of "human nature" built into their teaching, to a certain extent. How many of us didn't believe we were that much more right each time we had someone question us in service or whatever? The greater the objection the more we felt correct.

But I digress, and get back to my original purpose of this topic, even if it is stalling in the popularity polls.....

Congrats to all who have taken negative situations and turned them into great attitudes towards life.

Brad

29

Moral Absolutes??

by StinkyPantz in

jw
friends

.

in your opinion are there any?

i say, 'in your opinion' because we all define morality differently.

outbutnotdown

Euphenism,

What an excellent way to put it. I definitely couldn't have said it any better myself.

Brad