Posts by darkspilver

i'm quite surprised about the new approach of some local congregation brothers respect about my fade.... funny, ilegal and very dangerous in view of the different laws regarding personal data and minorities in spain and in the eu.... i already organized a press meeting with main newspapers in spain.

many has shown interest in this situation.

the fact of that a parallel judicial system do exist is amazing them.

darkspilver

Applying God’s Law: Religious Courts and Mediation in the U.S.
Across the United States, religious courts operate on a routine, everyday basis. The Roman Catholic Church alone has nearly 200 diocesan tribunals that handle a variety of cases, including an estimated 15,000 to 20,000 marriage annulments each year. In addition, many Orthodox Jews use rabbinical courts to obtain religious divorces, resolve business conflicts and settle other disputes with fellow Jews. Similarly, many Muslims appeal to Islamic clerics to resolve marital disputes and other disagreements with fellow Muslims.
For the most part, religious courts and tribunals operate without much public notice or controversy. Occasionally, however, issues involving religious law or religious courts garner media attention. The handling of clergy sexual abuse cases under Catholic canon law, for example, has come under scrutiny.
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/08/applying-gods-law-religious-courts-and-mediation-in-the-us/

Archbishop's lecture - Civil and Religious Law in England: a religious perspective
The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr. Rowan Williams delivers the foundation lecture in the Temple Festival series at the Royal Courts of Justice.
In his lecture entitled 'Civil and Religious Law in England: a religious perspective', given at the Royal Courts of Justice, Dr Williams looks at what space can be allowed alongside the secular law of the land for the legal provisions of faith groups, noting that "the issues that arise around what level of public or legal recognition, if any, might be allowed to the legal provisions of a religious group, are not peculiar to Islam: while the law of the Church of England is the law of the land, its daily operation is in the hands of authorities to whom considerable independence is granted." The issue also arises in relation to Orthodox Judaism.
http://rowanwilliams.archbishopofcanterbury.org/articles.php/1137/archbishops-lecture-civil-and-religious-law-in-england-a-religious-perspective

46

Call for Judicial Hearing by signed letter

by sp74bb in

jw
friends

i'm quite surprised about the new approach of some local congregation brothers respect about my fade.... funny, ilegal and very dangerous in view of the different laws regarding personal data and minorities in spain and in the eu.... i already organized a press meeting with main newspapers in spain.

many has shown interest in this situation.

the fact of that a parallel judicial system do exist is amazing them.

darkspilver

They are not doubting the "report" from that sister, nor seeking clarification as to whether the accusation is correct! They have already determined your "guilt".

So XXXX says I have had sex out of wedlock. Really? Have you another witness to this accusation against me? If not then is not the procedure set out for Jehovah's Witness elders is that the body should ask two elders to investigate, not to set up a judicial committee.

Since this thread was started, new information has come to light...

In an interview with a newspaper earlier this week Miguel Garcia Lopez now admits:

Miguel Garcia was separated from his wife to leave confession and four years later formally divorced. To "liberate" his wife, he wrote a letter in which he explained that he had a new relationship. Thus, she could get the "biblical divorce" and remarrying

Miguel Garcia was happy to effectively confess to adultery in order for his wife to have a scriptural divorce and to allow her to remarry

It seems the elders did not pursue this adultery as a judicial matter with Miguel Garcia at the time due to him having 'faded' from the congregation - ie no longer attending meeting, and for a number of years, had no longer been viewed as a JW either by the congregation or the public.

BUT THEN....

In another post, Hecce reveals:

I am aware of more because of the Spanish Forum and I can tell you that Mr. [Miguel Garcia] Lopez is "a pain" for the elders and that they just want to get rid of him.

So, after fading successfully, it seems that Miguel Garcia NOW wants to get involved some how with the congregation.

Therefore the elders have decided they have no choice but to now pursue the judicial regarding his earlier adultery confession for the benefit of all involved so that Miguel Garcia's relationship with the congregation can be placed on a correct footing.

The reverse would be true, if Miguel Garcia was still faded, the elders would not be pursing this matter, but it seems Miguel Garcia is effectively forcing the elders hand

Bear in mind that - although there is a need for allowance regarding language and translation - Miguel Garcia isn't naive, he knows what he is doing, he is familiar with the procedures....

It just seems like he's 'pushing' the elders and forcing them to act, BUT then complaining when they do - an example of you can't have your cake and eat it ?

51

Announcement from SPAIN: On Monday, the 26th online in the a.m. in the online edition of www.elperiodico.es...

by AndersonsInfo in

announcement from spain:.

on monday 26th septriembre, www.elperiodico.es published in its online edition the first publicly reported case of child abuse and harassment in spain watchtower, digital edition monday, tuesday print edition.

please maximum dissemination of the link, it will be online early in the morning of monday 26, in the online edition.

darkspilver

Hi Hecce

The press will present facts on the manner that they think will sell more papers, they are not going to publish a transcript word by word of their conversations with Mr. Garcia.

Yeah I know - that's why I was trying to work out what it was all about in some kind of timeline order.

I also don't expect a transcript from the newspaper - what I meant was that I would have liked an English translated transcript of the VIDEO interview that Miguel Garcia gave that appears on the newspaper website - this might helpfully fill in some of the missing details etc.

51

Announcement from SPAIN: On Monday, the 26th online in the a.m. in the online edition of www.elperiodico.es...

by AndersonsInfo in

announcement from spain:.

on monday 26th septriembre, www.elperiodico.es published in its online edition the first publicly reported case of child abuse and harassment in spain watchtower, digital edition monday, tuesday print edition.

please maximum dissemination of the link, it will be online early in the morning of monday 26, in the online edition.

darkspilver

So, yes, there is a story, but there is a confusing timeline and a mix of incidents in the newspaper articles.

In 1990, while attending a Spanish-speaking congregation in Brussels, Belgium, Miguel Garcia - then aged 16 - alleges that he was sexually abused/attacked by a man 'A' (a brother in good standing in the congregation) ie it was NOT consensual and Miguel Garcia was an 'unwilling participant'.

Three years later in 1993, and now in Spain, Miguel Garcia - then aged 19 - approached the elders in his congregation regarding his allegation of sexual abuse/attack that took place in Belgium three years earlier and it seems that a Judicial Committee (three elders) was set up for the man 'A' (???) for which Miguel Garcia cooperated and gave details - apparently others had made similar allegations regarding the same man 'A'.

What was the outcome of that judicial hearing? If summary details where placed in a sealed envelope does that mean the man 'A' was reproved / disfellowshipped?

Miguel Garcia complains now (in the Sept 2016 article) that he was 'asked not to file charges in order to not disgrace the congregation.'

Following the 1990 to 1993 events, Miguel Garcia remained a JW in good standing.

After some years, and still as a JW, Miguel Garcia married his wife (a sister in the JW congregation) who continues to be a JW down to this day.

Around five years ago? They separated (not divorced, and not scriptural) and Miguel Garcia stopped attending meetings (faded - not DF or DA)

Around this time Miguel Garcia suffered from panic attack/s requiring attendance at hospital (when was this? how soon after he stopping associating with JWs?)

Miguel Garcia complains that because his JW friends where concerned for his safety/health they visited him in hospital which he did not want (confusing – it is likely that some people would complain if NO one at least turned up - natural human empathy etc)

In time, and over a number of years, due to inactivity in the JW congregation, Miguel Garcia was effectively no longer viewed as a JW.

Four years later Miguel Garcia and his wife legally divorced (when?? 2014? 2015?)

IMPORTANT - although not needed for the legal divorce, Miguel Garcia was happy (at the same time, when?) to effectively confess to adultery in order for his wife to have a scriptural divorce and to allow her to remarry (as per her continuing JW beliefs).

In April 2014 Miguel Garcia wrote to the congregation he was last associated with and requested the removal of all his records and data etc from JW files (wouldn't this effectively be a technical 'disassociation' - and shouldn't/couldn’t the congregation have pursued this as a DA at the time? – tricky thing is I don't think the elders can ask if you want to DA.

The JWs told him he was still viewed as a 'baptised member', and not ALL records could therefore be destroyed.

IMPORTANT - it seems that Miguel Garcia was asking for the destruction (scrubbing out of the record?) of the very basic summary details of his allegations of earlier sexual abuse/attack? Yet there was huge outcry here when it was (mistakeningly) thought that the JWs were destroying these summary records anyway? Do you support the destruction of these (summary) sexual abuse/attack records?

Miguel Garcia is complaining now (in the Sept 2016 article) that some information on him was apparently not destroyed – again, it seems he wanted to remove (withdraw?) from the record his allegations of sexual abuse/attack.

Although no longer associating, or viewed by the congregation or the public in general, as being a JW, for around five years now - the congregation elders now wish to pursue a judicial committee.

QUESTION: Wouldn't Miguel Garcia's earlier 'confession' have been enough to trigger the Judicial? - no need for a preliminary meeting to confirm need for Judicial? Also, could that confession - which would have needed to be signed or at least verbally stated in front of two witnesses - have been enough anyway to DF Miguel Garcia even ‘in absentia’ – that is IF the JW elders had really wanted too at that time? Indeed, could Miguel Garcia's evident (non) action regarding JW scriptural things be sufficient to indicate a lack of repentance from a JW view point?

Miguel Garcia is complaining (in the Sept 2016 article) that the JW congregation are only now pursing the Judicial Committee due to them believing he has committed (homosexual) adultery rather than (heterosexual) adultery - ie: he is complaining that if the JW elders believed he had committed (heterosexual) adultery, they would NOT being pursing the Judicial Committee with him.

Sidenote - I believe the letter inviting him to the Judicial is in order (if they had not been able to contact Miguel Garcia in person or verbally), but it is a 'last resort' method, though it should NOT have listed the reason why, that should have been given to him verbally. Miguel Garcia isn't denying the allegation of adultery (as per above comments - allowing wife a scriptural divorce), and it's likely that members in his wife's congregation know too if she continued in good standing throughout and is now free to date/remarry, and Miguel Garcia has himself chosen to go public with the letter.

Sidenote 2 - Must say, I'm kinda disappointed that, after the build-up of this article in this English language forum, we seem to have only been provided with an automated 'google translation' of the articles and not a 'human' one - also disappointed that there seems to be no translated transcripts of the two videos either yet - c'est la vie

Does anybody have any corrections and/or clarifications on the above? Please?

51

Announcement from SPAIN: On Monday, the 26th online in the a.m. in the online edition of www.elperiodico.es...

by AndersonsInfo in

announcement from spain:.

on monday 26th septriembre, www.elperiodico.es published in its online edition the first publicly reported case of child abuse and harassment in spain watchtower, digital edition monday, tuesday print edition.

please maximum dissemination of the link, it will be online early in the morning of monday 26, in the online edition.

darkspilver

On Monday 26th septriembre, www.elperiodico.es published in its online edition the first publicly reported case of child abuse and harassment in Spain Watchtower, digital edition Monday, Tuesday print edition.

I'm afraid that, as nobody else has said it yet, I'm gonnna have to say it:

After anticipation was built up for this story over the weekend with the above message, which was further heightened on the day by the 12 hour delay of it's online publication (as we searched the promised website throughout the day)...

And although we all have the deepest respect and empathy for the participants in this deeply personal newspaper article...

I think, if you are honest, the elephant in the room is that it's kinda not the article we were expecting.

That's not to say, there isn't a story here, and it's good that it's being discussed here, just that it's a rather 'interesting' example of 'news management'.

And, besides, maybe more is being released today??

51

Announcement from SPAIN: On Monday, the 26th online in the a.m. in the online edition of www.elperiodico.es...

by AndersonsInfo in

announcement from spain:.

on monday 26th septriembre, www.elperiodico.es published in its online edition the first publicly reported case of child abuse and harassment in spain watchtower, digital edition monday, tuesday print edition.

please maximum dissemination of the link, it will be online early in the morning of monday 26, in the online edition.

darkspilver

From today's (27 September 2016) print edition of the Spanish language El Periódico - both the front page and the double page spread on pages 28 and 29

This Spanish newspaper prints two editions - in Spanish and Catalan - seemingly with the exact same articles and layouts etc - according to Wikipedia it has a combined print circulation of both languages of around 125,000 making it the fifth biggest print circulation in Spain which has a population of around 46 million.

(actually, that print circulation figure seems rather low for the 5th largest circulation?)

The print edition includes a copy of the letter which you can read here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hmmgnkd2xy6ny18/Escrito%20BN.pdf?dl=0

51

Announcement from SPAIN: On Monday, the 26th online in the a.m. in the online edition of www.elperiodico.es...

by AndersonsInfo in

announcement from spain:.

on monday 26th septriembre, www.elperiodico.es published in its online edition the first publicly reported case of child abuse and harassment in spain watchtower, digital edition monday, tuesday print edition.

please maximum dissemination of the link, it will be online early in the morning of monday 26, in the online edition.

darkspilver

http://www.elperiodico.com/es/noticias/sociedad/abusos-sexuales-encubiertos-los-testigos-jehova-5417032

Abusos sexuales encubiertos
El denunciante relata ante los Mossos que los Testigos de Jehová le conminaron a silenciar las agresiones que sufrió cuando era menor

46

Call for Judicial Hearing by signed letter

by sp74bb in

jw
friends

i'm quite surprised about the new approach of some local congregation brothers respect about my fade.... funny, ilegal and very dangerous in view of the different laws regarding personal data and minorities in spain and in the eu.... i already organized a press meeting with main newspapers in spain.

many has shown interest in this situation.

the fact of that a parallel judicial system do exist is amazing them.

darkspilver

FYI the thread / post below appears to be related to this letter....

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5088277520449536/announcement-from-spain-on-monday-26th-online-m-online-edition-elperiodico-es?page=1#/5728181745090560

51

Announcement from SPAIN: On Monday, the 26th online in the a.m. in the online edition of www.elperiodico.es...

by AndersonsInfo in

announcement from spain:.

on monday 26th septriembre, www.elperiodico.es published in its online edition the first publicly reported case of child abuse and harassment in spain watchtower, digital edition monday, tuesday print edition.

please maximum dissemination of the link, it will be online early in the morning of monday 26, in the online edition.

darkspilver

This has just been upload this evening (9.07pm Spanish time) - but this doesn't look like the article that Andresoninfo was saying it would be?? Confused

It does seem to related to this thread though....

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5186279211794432/call-judicial-hearing-signed-letter

"Los Testigos de Jehová me quieren juzgar por adulterio"
Un exmiembro denuncia a la organización religiosa por acoso y por citarle a un juicio interno
Miguel García sospecha que la confesión le persigue en el fondo porque tiene una relación homosexual

http://www.elperiodico.com/es/noticias/sociedad/los-testigos-jehova-quieren-juzgar-por-adulterio-5416455