Posts by berrygerry

30

Governing Bodies Secret Elder's training video on suicide leaked

by Watchtower-Free in

watchtower minions have pulled down jwsurveys links .

here's another one .. the gb should be held liable for this crap.

http://www.mediafire.com/watch/cvas6fcrc9zca94/shepherding_instructional_suicidal_widow.avi.

Edmonton Convention 200 kms Away

by jgnat in

this has come up before but we ran in to an old guy from the hall over the weekend and he confirmed a few things about the change of edmonton venue this year.

i'd mentioned this old fellow, too.

a rare friend from the kingdom hall, a real character, and i genuinely miss him.

berrygerry

Were they banning attendees from bringing their own food and drink, or would they still allow that?

(I've heard this threat before - where if attendees bring in take-out food from nearby establishments, then the facility will end up saying - No outside food, period.)

4

Just who is an employer and employee in the many corporations listed under the banner of jehovahs witnesses as distinct from volunteers.Who gets a salary.

by smiddy in

this thought occured to me while reflecting on comments made by the organisation that jw`s should not state they are representatives of the wtb&ts , because in reality they are not employed by the organisation , they are merely volunteers as jehovahs witnesses .. so i`m thinking not only the rank & file jw is not employed , neither are elders , ms , pioneers etc.of a congregation .

they are all only volunteers who have no comeback on the society for any reason whatsoever , financial or otherwise .. what about co`s , do`s etc.

are they paid employees of the wtb&ts ?

berrygerry

It is a corporation.

It has "members" (legal def. of members) that vote at the business part of the annual meeting. They are not employees not do they have legal liability.

The bylaws govern membership and choosing of directors.

The directors are the true legal reps. of the Society.

62

Jehovah's Witnesses Watchtower SUICIDE . How many JW suicides can you recall?

by Anti-Cult in

how many jw suicides can you recall?.

is it more common than the rest of society?.

i personally know of 5.

berrygerry

http://www.funeralfinder.com/obituaries/fosbenner-nathan/04-28-2012/

This one and one failed attempt.

The funeral was at the KH.

Was it a known suicide?

.

I personally know of 6 successful, and numerous other successfuls, and numerous severe unsuccessful.

30

Don't you hate it when they just comment from the paragraph?

by toto555 in

isn't that just annoying?

can people even comment in their own words anymore?

how bad is it where you're at?

berrygerry

We are repeatedly reminded that the first comment should be short, and the direct answer from the paragraph.

8

League of and United Nations Prophetic Speculation

by sf in

< http://user.tninet.se/~oof408u/fkf/english/un.htm.

the league of nations and the united nations in prophetic speculation .

"and many false prophets shall arise, .

berrygerry

Some interesting research.

Had to dig out the Enemies book for confirmation.

Page 291 also has an interesting Iine (Remember this was published in 1937):

"The question is, Will Great Britain and America become Fascist under the dominating control of the Roman Catholic Hierarchy? The Scriptures and the facts appear to fully support that conclusion."

1

baptism

by juliew in

does anyone have any watchotwer literuature references which show minors being baptized before age 16?.

berrygerry

Google "age of reason" now demonstrated with MRI technology to average around 25, but WIDE variation.

.

g 9/07 p 13 Baptisteries were often circular or polygonal monuments, either built as a special and separate edifice or connected to an existing church. Excavations show that these buildings were small (generally less than 2,000 square feet [200 sq m]) but beautifully adorned with colonnades, marble, mosaics, and frescoes, sometimes representing Bible scenes. Some baptisteries, such as the one in Mariana, Corsica, even had an elegant baldachin, or canopy, above the pool. The name baptistery was also applied to the pool itself, which could be square, round, hexagonal, oblong, cruciform, or octagonal. As shown by their width and depth, early baptisteries were evidently designed for adult baptism. They were generally large enough to allow at least two people to fit in them. In Lyon, east central France, for example, the pool measured ten feet [3.25 m] in width. Many pools had steps—usually seven of them—leading down into the water.

These developments led to building ever smaller baptism facilities. In his study on the history of baptism, historian Frédéric Buhler states: “Archaeology, written documents, and the visual arts show that, generally speaking, baptizing went from the total immersion of adults during the first centuries of the Christian era to the sprinkling of infants, with the intermediate stages of partial immersion of adults and total immersion of children.”

w06/4/1 p 27 Are children in a position to make an intelligent dedication? The Scriptures give no age requirements for baptism. Still, infants certainly could not become believers, exercise faith, or make a dedication to God. (Acts 8:12) Regarding first-century Christians, historian Augustus Neander states in his book General History of the Christian Religion and Church: “Baptism was administered at first only to adults, as men were accustomed to conceive baptism and faith as strictly connected.”
9 In the case of youths, some develop a measure of spirituality at a relatively tender age, while others take longer. Before getting baptized, however, a youngster should have a personal relationship with Jehovah, a sound understanding of the fundamentals of the Scriptures, and a clear comprehension of what dedication involves, as is the case with adults.

w04/6/15 p 11 . But what characterized their faith more than anything else, clearly distinguishing Anabaptists from other religions, was the conviction that baptism was for adults and not for children.
Adult baptism was not simply a question of religious dogma; it was an issue of power. If baptism was delayed until adulthood—thus allowing a person to make a decision based on faith—some might not get baptized at all. And individuals not baptized would, at least to a degree, remain outside the control of the church. For some churches, adult baptism meant a loss of power.
Hence, Catholics and Lutherans alike wanted to discourage the practice of adult baptism.

w 01/10/1 p. 17 16 If a baptized youth is disfellowshipped, the congregation members are expected “to quit mixing in company with” him. (1 Corinthians 5:11; 2 John 10, 11) This may eventually help him to ‘come to his senses’ and return to God’s protective fold. (Luke 15:17) Whether he comes back or not, however, members of the congregation can encourage the family of the disfellowshipped youth. We can all look for opportunities to show “fellow feeling” and to be “tenderly compassionate” toward them.

g90/4/8 p 16 Granted, some teenagers lack seriousness and are too irresponsible and emotionally immature to make as far-reaching a decision as baptism.

g 89/8/22 p. 19 Zwingli also had problems with his own followers. In 1525 a group broke away, disagreeing with him on the issue of State authority over the Church, which he affirmed and they denied. Called Anabaptists (“rebaptizers”), they viewed infant baptism as a useless formality, saying that baptism was only for adult believers. They also opposed the use of carnal weapons, even in so-called just wars. Thousands of them were put to death for their beliefs.

g 88/11/22 p 20 Like the Anabaptists, they [ Socinians ] taught that infant baptism was unscriptural; in the Bible, only adults were baptized.

g 87/11/15 p. 21 In their desire to get back to the Christian teachings of the first century, they rejected more of the Roman Catholic dogma than did Martin Luther and other reformers. For example, the Anabaptists maintained that there could only be an adult dedication to Christ. On account of their practice of adult baptism, even for a person who had been baptized as an infant, they were given the name “Anabaptists,” which means “rebaptizers.”

w 87/4/15 p. 12 12 Should even youths consider baptism? Well, recall that Jehovah told the six armed men in the vision: “Old man, young man and virgin and little child and women you should kill off—to a ruination. But to any man upon whom there is the mark do not go near.” (Ezekiel 9:6) Of course, children too young to make a dedication would be protected by a parent’s “mark” if that parent is striving to bring the children up to love Jehovah and if they are obediently responding. (1 Corinthians 7:14) Yet, if a child is intelligent enough to make a personal decision and has reached the point where he “knows how to do what is right,” do not presume that he will continue indefinitely under the merit of his parent’s “mark.”—James 4:17.
13 Before making a dedication, a youth should have adequate knowledge to comprehend what is involved and should be seeking a personal relationship with God. He should understand and be adhering to Bible principles, knowing that he will be held accountable for any infraction thereof. He should also have sufficient experience in sharing his faith with others and know that this is a vital part of true worship; he should truly want to serve God. Naturally, he would not be expected to show the maturity of an adult, but his spiritual progress should be reasonably steady.
14 If one has ‘counted the cost,’ it places one at no disadvantage to make a dedication as a youth. With almost all new Christians, after baptism appreciation deepens. “Getting baptized as a youngster was a protection for me,” explained David. “As I got older, I noticed how some unbaptized teenagers in the congregation felt free of the authority of the elders and as a consequence veered into bad conduct. But I always remembered that I had dedicated my life to God. My life was already taken, so I could not follow such teenagers.”
15 ‘What, though, if my son or daughter gets baptized when young and then cools off?’ some parents wonder. Certainly, a youth should not get baptized just to please a parent or because some friends do. Yet Joseph, Samuel, King Josiah, and Jesus when teenagers all had a serious view of the worship of God and held to it. (Genesis 37:2; 39:1-3; 1 Samuel 1:24-28; 2:18-21; 2 Chronicles 34:3; Luke 2:42-49) In modern times, a Christian named Jean was baptized when she was only ten years old. When asked years later if she really understood the step, Jean replied: “I knew I loved Jehovah, I appreciated what Jesus did for us, and I wanted to serve Jehovah.” She has served faithfully for some 40 years since her baptism. Each youth is an individual; no one can set a standard age limit. Parents should strive to reach their child’s heart, helping him or her to develop godly devotion. They should not only keep before their children the privilege of dedication and baptism but also fortify them to be steadfast worshipers.

w 86/3/15 p. 7 Date (C.E.) Event
c. 193 . Tertullian argues for adult baptism

w 82/2/15 p. 30 13 And finally, you may feel that you are yet too young to make a dedication with understanding. For many, this may be true, since there are thousands of young children associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses—which to us is a cause for joy. (Matthew 19:13-15) While growing to be sufficiently mature, mentally and physically, to take upon themselves the full responsibility of dedication and baptism, we can have confidence that God ‘marks’ such children as “holy,” as long as they are responsive and obedient to believing parents. (1 Corinthians 7:14) But time does not stand still. If you have responded to your parents’ bringing you up “in the discipline and mental-regulating of Jehovah,” and you have applied yourself in learning, both in the home and in the congregation, has the time now come for you to make your dedication to Jehovah? If so, after talking this over with your parents and the elders in your congregation, we encourage you to follow through on your decision to dedicate your life to Jehovah and get baptized.

w 76/9/15 p. 575 Questions From Readers
● First Corinthians 7:14 states that children of a believing parent “are holy.” Is baptism involved in such a child’s ‘holiness’ in God’s sight? What if the child is retarded?
But is the child able to make personal decisions, able to decide from his own mind and heart (not that of the parents) the course in life he wishes to take? Is he capable of comprehending and seeking a personal relationship with God, one that is not dependent upon his parents? Is he able to stand before a judicial body, accountable for any wrongdoing he may commit? If not, then such child is evidently not in position to be baptized but would continue under family merit in God‘s eyes, counted by him as “holy” in that sense.
g 71/11/22 p. 12 Concerning other teachings of the Church, he states: “In the long-term analysis one has to say that the Roman Church has had more bad theology than good.” An example of this he gives is infant baptism. Not only the New Testament, but the testimonies of ancient church authorities “presuppose adult candidates” for baptism, not babies. The use of bread only at the Mass is also unscriptural: “No Roman theologian could deny that reception of both species [bread and wine] is the original sign.”

w 65/3/15 p. 191 Thus throughout the centuries there have been professed Christians who rejected the error of the trinity, usually called “Arians.” There were those who closely followed primitive Christianity and who were known as quartodecimans because of celebrating Christ’s memorial on Nisan 14, holding out against the paganizing trend of Rome. Then there were the Paulicians from the seventh century onward, whose teachings have been termed “genuine apostolic Bible-Christianity.” They stood solely by the “New Testament,” practiced adult baptism, believed that God in his love had sent an angel to earth who at his baptism became God’s Son. They rejected unscriptural tradition, had no clergy-laity distinction, refused to revere the cross.

w 63/7/15 p. 445 Parents must appreciate the seriousness of their child’s dedication and baptism and realize that dedication to Jehovah puts the child under Jehovah’s corrective arrangements when his laws are violated.

w61/1/15 p 37 Just when infant baptism began is not known with preciseness, but it was definitely after the death of the apostles of Jesus Christ that the practice appeared. Explains The Encyclopœdia Britannica: “The whole early period knows baptism only for adults, who join themselves of their own resolve to the Christian community. Infant baptism appears sporadically towards the end of the second century and was practiced also during the following centuries, yet only as an exception.”—Vol. 3, page 84

"The sinless man Jesus got baptized because of his desire to do his Father’s will. Explaining this, the apostle Paul applies Psalm 40:6-8 to Jesus Christ: “Look! I am come (in the roll of the book it is written about me) to do your will, O God.” (Heb. 10:4-7) Jesus was baptized because he wanted to symbolize his dedication to do Jehovah’s will; and he proved that he had made this dedication by turning his back on carpenter work and beginning the ministry. Jesus made this dedication as a full-grown man: “Jesus also was baptized. . . . Furthermore, Jesus himself, when he commenced his work, was about thirty years old.”—Luke 3:21, 23.
Christian baptism today should be performed in imitation of the example that Jesus Christ set. Thus the significance of Jesus’ baptism adheres to the baptism of his followers today. The baptism of a Christian serves as a symbol that one has dedicated his life to God and has vowed, like Jesus: ‘I am come to do your will, O God.’ "
"Did this term “people of all the nations” include babies? Manifestly not, for that would have changed the meaning of the baptism Jesus instituted! Babies cannot make a personal dedication to God, based on faith and knowledge. ... No, the “people of all the nations” that were to be baptized did not include babies; they had to grow up first so they could understand the value of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice and put their faith in it, after hearing about the Messiah."

"If parents have been diligent to teach their children God’s truth, then when they grow up they will be able to make a personal decision to dedicate their lives to God. After having made this decision, they will, like Jesus, symbolize that dedication by water immersion. By being faithful to that dedication, they will prove worthy of enjoying everlasting life on earth, under the kingdom of heaven."
"To real Christians the words and example of Jesus Christ carry far more authority than the traditions of men. Real Christians follow the example of Christ closely. They see from a study of the Holy Scriptures overwhelming evidence that (1) no baby was ever baptized by the first-century Christians; (2) Christian baptism is not for washing away sins but is a symbol of a personal dedication to God, and (3) children of believing parents, without baptism, are viewed by God as “holy.”
Babies, then, need not and should not be baptized. Baptism is a ceremony that marks a personal commitment, a commitment that no one else can make for you and that certainly a babe-in-arms cannot make for itself. The Biblical doctrine of water baptism, and therefore the one water baptism that God really accepts, remains the same today as it was when Jesus began it."

w60/5/15 p 304 5 The requirements for baptism, then, can be summed up as (1) having enough knowledge and understanding to know what is being agreed to, and (2) being morally clean. In some countries the organization of Jehovah’s witnesses has had to take measures to make sure that both of these requirements are met. If someone does not yet understand the implications of baptism, then it is not the overseers in the organization who are preventing him from being baptized. Rather, baptism is temporarily postponed because of the ineligibility of the candidate. He does not understand and therefore could not be in harmony with God’s requirements. In the same way, a child under the age of reason is not eligible for baptism, because he does not understand all it means. In certain adults this lack of ability to understand the seriousness of the step they are taking is sometimes observed. In lands where this is common, the organization requires that a certain period of study be completed before a candidate is eligible. In the same manner, persons who need to make adjustments in their moral standard of living to conform to God’s righteous requirements should not be baptized until those changes have been made.

w60/5/1/ p 263 The abbey Corblet said in Des Lieux Consacrés à l’ Administration du Baptême, page 13: “The baptistery had especially been constructed in view of the baptism of adults. When, in the eighth century, that of young infants became generalized, one would have to abandon little by little these isolated monuments to replace them by baptismal tanks placed in the churches. Where one continued to use the baptisteries, one replaced the large basin by an immersion tank for infants.”
This change, and the religious building programs of the ninth to the thirteenth centuries, brought about the destruction of many of the immersion basins formerly used for adults. However, a few of them still remain, as silent, though eloquent, testimonials to this change....
Louis Réau, member of the French Institute and historian of church art, thinks it was this change from baptizing only adults that gradually led to the change from immersion to sprinkling. The change was necessary, he says, because it was dangerous to plunge infants completely under the water.
p 264 As Réau says, the Church has changed the meaning of baptism. No longer is it for adults, “prepared over a long period of time and fully conscious of their engagement.” Instead, it has become something for infants who have neither the knowledge nor the ability to make a personal commitment.
The Church, in baptizing infants instead of adults, and in sprinkling instead of immersing, “has blotted out the symbolic meaning of primitive baptism,” when, among other things, “immersion signified death of the ‘old man’ buried under the water and coming out of the baptismal bath [signified] birth to a new life.
They know that baptism is a Christian requirement, but they baptize only people who are old enough to make their own decisions, who understand God’s Word, and who have dedicated themselves to Him.

w 56/5/15 309 15His invitation to them to sing Jehovah’s praises meant too that it was proper for them to make a dedication to do Jehovah’s will. Faithful children today want to serve Jehovah lovingly and loyally and to follow in the same way that their devoted parents are going. Some may ask, then, Would it be proper for me in my early teens to make such a dedication vow and symbolize this by water immersion? Since many children are baptized each year at circuit assemblies and other conventions of Jehovah’s people, can it be said that this is the proper course for these young ministers to take? Of course, if they do not know in their own mind what they are doing, then they are not ready to take this vital and important step. The definite age as to when baptism or dedication is appropriate cannot be designated. If a child has sufficient knowledge of Almighty God, Jehovah, and his righteous purposes and adheres faithfully to the upright principles set down in his Word, if the child has reached the age of accountability and desires to make a dedication to Jehovah, it is in order for him to do so and it is then proper to take the step of baptism by water. Taking this essential and direct step toward life, the young minister will not be found in the position of the unrighteous. Dedication is an essential step and necessary to gain the approval of Jehovah God. Take note of the wise counsel of Solomon in this respect: “Remember also thy Creator in the days of thy youth, before the evil days come. . . . Fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every work into judgment, with every hidden thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”—Eccl. 12:1, 13, 14, AS.
16 So, then, as parents, let us take heed to God’s Word. As children, take heed willingly, gladly to obey! Even before you are twenty-one, try always to show good sense and strength and keep your guard up. You boys of seventeen and eighteen, remember that you are now entering manhood; you must make right decisions. You are becoming tomorrow’s men and each of you can be ready as a man today.

61

CO is chasing me . Meeting him tomorrow.

by Ancientofdays in

this week is the "special week", co is back.. he phone called me this morning asking to meet together.. i replied "i don't refuse people who want talking to me, but my condition is that you must be alone, and we meet in public space.".

he agreed and we will meet tomorrow in a cafe.. .

this week he already met with my wife in the kh, and he told her "i believe your housband is apostate !!

berrygerry

DO NOT MEET.

I was conned into a "Shepherding Visit," and my wife ended up being used against me in a despicable way.

It has created a huge divide.

(She uttered the phrase "If you make me choose between Jehovah's elders and you, I choose Jehovah).

Don't do it.

There is a push on to push out the non-productive - and not just push out, but ensure df'd.

43

Some Memes I Made This Morning

by Beth Shan in

.

apostate chef ramsey.

that was a big burn..

berrygerry

PM sent.

2

Question for Active and Other Elders - Re: God's Blessing

by berrygerry in

the shepherd book makes reference to "evidence of god's blessing" as well as "fruits that befit repentance" when deciding the fate of a sinner.. jj did a video covering the scenario of an elder who sinned secretly, and hid it for years, but could remain an elder if certain things were true, including "evidence of god's blessing.".

i believe jj's video was making the point that this scenario was if an elder sinned before becoming an elder.. however, the shepherd book does use the terminology "if the sin occurred before he was appointed as an elder or ministerial servant...".

does not that terminology indicate that a sin that occurred after appointment could also be forgiven, and the elder could remain as such?.

berrygerry

The Shepherd Book makes reference to "evidence of God's blessing" as well as "fruits that befit repentance" when deciding the fate of a sinner.

JJ did a video covering the scenario of an elder who sinned secretly, and hid it for years, but could remain an elder if certain things were true, including "evidence of God's blessing."

I believe JJ's video was making the point that this scenario was if an elder sinned before becoming an elder.

However, the Shepherd book does use the terminology "If the sin occurred before he was appointed as an elder or ministerial servant..."

Does not that terminology indicate that a sin that occurred AFTER appointment could also be forgiven, and the elder could remain as such?

What, then constitutes "evidence of God's blessing" and "fruits that befit repentance" that assist elders in their determination?

Thanks.