Posts by OneEyedJoe

9

HOW TO TURN A HOME BIBLE STUDY into an underground railway

by TerryWalstrom in

are you crazy?.

you find yourself 'awake' to the truth about the 'truth' and all you do about it.

is sulk?

OneEyedJoe

Aren't most jw's suspicious of old literature? don't their apostate bells go off?

Yep. Even showing my wife something straight out of WT library, she wanted to go to JW.org for the "latest information."

26

Scientists almost created life in a lab?!

by abiather in

the scientists at the scripps research institute, california, have almost succeeded in creating the world's first living organism with artificial dna!.

http://discovermagazine.com/2015/jan-feb/43-first-organism-with-artificial-dna.

http://www.scripps.edu/news/press/2014/20140507romesberg.html.

OneEyedJoe

thus would prove beyond any doubt that AN ORGANIZER was needed for the emergence of life in the first place,

False. This does not prove that life requires a sentient designer any more than the fact that humans can trigger an avalanche with explosives proves that avalanches require a sentient being to initiate them. This is simply humans doing in a few years what it took evolution billions of years to do.

13

Is the Watchtower Shifting All Financial and Legal Risk to Local Elders, are they 100% liable for Negligence?

by Trailer Park Pioneer in

what is the watchtower organization leaving behind for all the kingdom halls after their done siphoning them dry?

who is going to pay for a lawsuit or damages when some incompetent elders or three are busted for something very bad?

will the watchtower help or leave them alone for the sharks to shred to pieces?

OneEyedJoe

It certainly appears to be their goal to have the underlings take the fall for anything that happens going forward, but I suspect that given the truth of the matter and the abundance of leaked documents, any good lawyer could still connect the dots back to HQ.

The problem is that they want to have their cake and eat it too - they want to exert absolute control all the way down to the local level, but not be liable for anything that comes from this control. Until theirs some true autonomy to the circuits and congregations, they'll probably remain liable at least to some degree. Of course, they'll never surrender enough control to grant the congregations sufficient autonomy for that to happen.

Though, I'm not a lawyer and don't even play one on TV, so maybe someone who actually knows something will chime in. I'm just talking from the perspective of a potential jury member - it seems like it wouldn't be too difficult for a lawyer to show that the WTS still has it's hands in everything.

29

Feb Kingdom Ministry 2015: Irate Householders - why so angry?

by Trailer Park Pioneer in

feb kingdom ministry 2015, irate householders, "we don't apologize for our work", "did they hear rumors about jws"?

why so angry?

blood or disfellowshipping?.

OneEyedJoe

Both of these examples - blood and disfellowshipping - are 'hot button' issues for many of us who have left the JWs. So, in effect, the WTS is using these examples to identify potential 'dangerous' apostates to the publishers. And, directing the publishers to avoid these dangerous people. Most people who have had no or little contact with the JWs are almost completely unaware of the ramifications of these two doctrines.
The most likely arguments I encountered in field service, so many years ago, were about Xmas, Hallowe'en and birthdays.

This is a good point. I think you're on to something, this is just a warning to avoid apostates and inoculate the R/F by asserting in advance that anything critical of the org is untrue. If they were looking for an untrue accusation to use (a category that the objection to the policy on xmas, birthdays, etc clearly doesn't fall under) why wouldn't they use the "You don't believe in jesus" line. I've heard householders say that time and again, and from talking to other JWs, it seems quite common, at least in predominantly christian areas. Why not use that as an example?

Instead they use two subjects that few JWs can defend, and they certainly can't defend it if the householder presses the matter after they read their scripture. They also know that no one that raises the blood or dfing issues is ever going to become a study. It seems like the entire intent was just to say that anything bad is untrue, and to make JWs feel like they're in the right (we don't apologize). If I had to guess, I'd say probably only about 10% of JWs would actually attempt to defend anything to a critical HH, and those aren't likely to be swayed by anything. The other 90% are now effectively inoculated with the statement that criticism is untrue, so that once they've run away, they won't think twice about it. If you're going to attempt to perform such an inoculation, you're certainly better off doing it on the subject they're likely to encounter, assuming the average JW knows about it (why they don't mention the jesus isn't your mediator).

something else that's notable is that they did not mention anything about the pedophile suits going on - that's probably much more likely to be mentioned by a non-apostate HH. If their intent was for people to actually defend the org, they'd prepare them. Instead, it seems that they just want them to run away, and have "untrue rumors" ringing in their ears.

263

Poster country flags and privacy

by Simon in

the new forum originally had a little country flag next to each post showing the country that the post was made from based on the geoip encoding (the country the ip address is from).

before i switched over to the new site someone made an issue about it violating their privacy and i didn't want to complicate and confuse the switchover with policy debate at the same time as technical issues so removed the flags even though i disagreed.. someone has already requested it as a feature and i think it should be added back so i thought it's now time to open the discussion and get everyone's opinions.

first, the reason i think it should be shown:.

OneEyedJoe

In the example above, "Our local Bethel branch is closing down" already gives the country away (at least short-lists it but + timing = good degree of certainty) and really, they have already done a very good job of describing lots of personal details that could identify them. Adding the country does not.

Ok, well assuming that they didn't reveal that the local bethel was closing down, the country they're from could still take it to the point where they went from relatively anonymous to relatively identifiable. I personally don't care too much whether my country is revealed to everyone but I can see it being somewhat detrimental if it's included. It probably won't make a lick of difference for folks in the US, Mexico, Canada, etc, but for those that are in small countries with small JW populations, it makes things a little more risky, and that might push someone over the edge to the point that they're not willing to risk joining.

Sure, the fact that the flag is included next to each post might be a factor in what this theoretical person posted, but I wonder what benefits the community more - knowing the poster's country, or getting a slightly more personal version of their story (or getting it at all)?

Now, should someone who would do that be able to pretend to be a member of the community just like others? Would it have been better or worse if you could see whoever had been pretending to be your friend wasn't where they claimed? Something to make you suspicious and more guarded?

I suspect that anyone who's really intent on tracking someone down would likely A. Be from the same country anyway, and B. know how to use a proxy if they're not and want to make it appear so. This could well be a two-edged sword - maybe some will be exposed as liars based on their IP, but others may well be talked to more openly, not because of where they are, but because of their ability to use a proxy.

Another thing that I would point out (maybe it's been mentioned already, I'm not sure) is that having country flags next to each post might give the forum a distinctly nationalistic feel. normally not a problem, but if your goal is to get the occasional active JW to linger a while, it's probably best to avoid evoking any of the cult defense mechanisms with something that's relatively trivial.

It adds the posters context to the discussion, especially if it is about some cultural specific story (e.g. US gun control, Chinese aviation or whatever).

It's simple enough for someone to give the context if its necessary. The bulk of what's discussed on the forum is not in the context of a particular country, but in the context of the watchtower cult. Forcing everyone to give this context when only a few actually need to provide it seems a bit heavy-handed.

It shows up potential spammers / scammers - if someone is from China or Nigeria and they are claiming to be some grandmother from Wisconsin then you know there may be something up - yes, people can fake their location but why not raise the bar and make it more difficult for them ... Even if people aren't scammers, I don't see why we need to enable anyone to portray a false identity (e.g. claiming to be in the US when they are maybe in the UK).

If someone's a scammer, I suspect that there's more than even chances that they'll be able to work out how to use a proxy that will always appear to be from a particular country.

It shows up people using anonymizing proxies. If someone's location changes every other post then it's more visible than the IP hash and I think people should at least be aware of that so that they can chose to be more guarded with what they share.

If someone's using a proxy already, they could easily use one that provides an IP that consistently shows up as being from a particular country. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

It looks cool and shows what a global community we are.

fair enough.

It's a public internet forum, not a secret society or whistleblowing organization.

While it's not a secret society, I suspect that there are very many who tentatively join (I was one) after much thought and only after going to great lengths to protect their identity (i.e. using a one-off email, etc). Some, particularly those in countries with small JW populations, might see this as one risk too many. It would be a shame if an attempt to show how international the forum was actually reduced the level of diversity. There are many tales of JW elders or even r/f who have gone to great lengths to catch someone in the act, so I think it's quite understandable that many want to protect their identity.

Since the only advantage that doesn't have a counterpoint is "it looks cool" and there are at least perceived risks (a perceived risk is all it takes to cause damage, even if the risk isn't real) it seems to me that it's not really worth it to have the country flags. I don't care personally (I suspect most anyone can have a pretty good guess of where I'm from based on how I spell color) but I think there's a greater potential for damage to the community than the benefit can justify.

9

HOW TO TURN A HOME BIBLE STUDY into an underground railway

by TerryWalstrom in

are you crazy?.

you find yourself 'awake' to the truth about the 'truth' and all you do about it.

is sulk?

OneEyedJoe

Yeah your right, if I had it to do over again I would of stayed in and did a family study to help wake them up. But I got so pissed after what I learned concerning their blood doctrine I stopped going and have been on the spiritual outs with the family ever since. Learning ttatt is a very emotional process so one doesn't necessarily react the way one should.

I started to write a similar post, but didn't because I didn't want to rain on Terry's parade. This approach is really good for elders/pioneers or other super men who give the appearance of being super spiritual. For folks like me who never was all that into it, and never did the family study, it's useless. If I were to try to get my wife to do a family study and came in with any information that seemed to go contrary to the cult, she'd immediately snap into cult personality (this happens even if I so much as mention a scripture that conflicts with what they just said at a meeting).

But like I said, if you're an elder that's woken up, this seems like a really good start.

32

2014 Watchtower Publisher Statistics

by jwfacts in

the 2014 grand totals page has been released onto facebook.. .

.

i have started updating the statistics and graphs at jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php, and will release highlights as i work through it during the rest of the day..

OneEyedJoe

With most of the new baptism s being born in theres no need for new seats and the so called need for kh is a big fat lie. I wonder why the number of ones leaving dropped way off in 2009 and hasn't gone back up much since then?

Baptisms of born-ins still have to come from somewhere - even if the number is solely indicative of the birth-rate of JWs, they still need to split congregations to make room as families grow.

With the 1500 or so new congregations, they'd only need about 300 KHs assuming they can get full utilization of them. Of course, this also assumes they were already at capacity, which probably isn't the case. I guess there is probably some additional need for new KHs on top of that due to the churn they're experiencing - there's a lot of growth in developing countries, and none in the 1st world (any growth there is almost certainly from immigrants). This actually compliments their business model quite handily because it means that they actually do need to build more KHs. What they don't mention is that they're pocketing the money from the KHs sold where there's decline, but they're not spending that money to build the new ones where they're needed.

Regardless, the need for new KHs isn't anything near what you get the impression it is from all the letters and articles that come out of them. The need for donations for these new builds is even more misrepresented.

32

2014 Watchtower Publisher Statistics

by jwfacts in

the 2014 grand totals page has been released onto facebook.. .

.

i have started updating the statistics and graphs at jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php, and will release highlights as i work through it during the rest of the day..

OneEyedJoe

I'm curious about what warrants these additional congregations in the first place. With 275,581 baptized, this amounts to an average of 2.38 additional publishers per congregation (using the 2014 number of congregations, or 2.42 using the 2013 number of congregations). This certainly isn't enough to warrant all these new congregations. It's not as if large numbers of people are being converted in a local area to the point where new congregations are being formed purely out of new converts.

Looking at it another way, it makes a little more sense:

dividing the newly baptized into the newly formed congregations gives us 173 new cultists in each new congregation. Of course, the effective growth would have to take in account the number that stopped publishing to get the true net growth. Once you do that, you're down to about 106 new ones per new congregation, which is a pretty typical congregation size.

One thing that's for sure - the big J definitely isn't "speeding up the work" and the need for new KHs has dropped significantly in the past couple years. This stands in direct contrast to all the cult's raving on about how many new KHs are needed in order to drive up donations.

20

Is child abuse becoming the 'Benghazi' of exJW's?

by Simon in

i've been noticing a trend recently that seems to becoming prevalent in posts which i think is a little sad and counter productive where, whatever the topic is actually about, someone will be keen to remind everyone about child abuse issues within the wts.. any sort of abuse, especially that of children, is a very serious issue but i'm not sure it's prevention is necessarily best-served by brining it up at every opportunity.

it ends up looking a little like the republican party's obsession with benghazi where they harp on about it to such an extent that people have become blind to it and it almost becomes a punchline.

people become less and less convinced of the claims because they hear them too often.. trying to turn any discussion into including comments on it, however well-intentioned, starts to look misguided at some point.

OneEyedJoe

100% agree. When I was first dipping my toes into the water here, before I found jwfacts the apostate community seemed somewhat obsessed with the child abuse issue. Of course, i had been inoculated by the cult against things like that with the 'imperfect men' excuse. As Simon pointed out, mentioning it in small, out of context, doses like that makes people more prepared for the full information and actually does the topic a disservice. Much like a vaccine, you get used to everyone harping on child abuse so if you ever come across the full information to realize that it's a systemic problem, you're more likely to dismiss it.

If we limit the child abuse discussion to topics that present the full story, people stumbling upon it are more likely to see it as a credible, systemic problem. That can only happen, though, if all the information is presented, otherwise the 'imperfect men' excuse covers everything nicely, perhaps with a touch of persecution complex.

This has been on my mind for a while, but I didn't know how it would be received if I brought it up. The many off-handed references here to the pedophile protecting GB or similar comments probably delayed my awakening by several months. For someone in a different situation, it could very well push them back to the cult forever.

12

Has anyone ever gotten disfellowshipped for going to University?

by SonoftheTrinity in

jehovah's witnesses claim no one is disfellowshipped for pursuing higher education.

somehow it seems there must be some halfwit sorry excuse for an elder somewhere who personally felt threatened by over educated young whippersnappers and decided to mark every nerd he could point his sweaty little finger with.

OneEyedJoe

I think they'd be hard pressed to justify DFing someone for going to college, but as is often said around here you can be DF'd for literally anything that 3 elders agree on.

The only exception that I could think of is if someone went to an overtly religious college, especially if they require that you take classes on religion, as many do. But even so, I've never heard of anyone getting DF'd for that.