The only time I've heard of something like this is when someone says that being DFed would make them kill themselves they won't act and "leave it in Jehovah's hands." There's no way they'd do this, especially not for gross sin. They always brag about how they "remove the sinner from their midst."
OneEyedJoe
JoinedPosts by OneEyedJoe
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56
Is it true? Heard a rumor WT postphones Disfellowshipping until further notice!!??
by Olivia Wilde ini am not sure if it's true but i heard from a good source that wt has given instructions to elders to postponed disfellowshipping members from wrong doing/gross sin until further instructions given by headquarters.
i heard some jws were just reproved either privately or publically.
has anyone else heard anything like this recently?
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183
JWs have more good points than bad
by lsw1961 in1) many who were on the destructive path have been transformed by their teachings (this includes me who was once vicious, and presumptuous and atheistic).
2) equal monthly pay to all members of the bethel community regardless of whether they are bc members or sweepers.
this is something that still remains as an unattainable dream for the world.
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OneEyedJoe
Screw it, I'll take a stab on my thoughts:
1) I'm glad that you've been able to find some benefit from being a JW and turn your life around. There are, however, many groups out there that have similar results in helping people recover from dangerous addictions, anger issues, and moral bankruptcy. Many groups, I might add, that do not require absolute loyalty to the point of death. On the other hand, there are also many groups that make precisely this claim (see scientology, among many other cults) and while this is accurate in their case, I hope you'd agree that scientology helping a few alcoholics doesn't justify nor redeem their use of physical brutality to control and punish adherents. Similarly I don't think that the JWs helping you to turn your life around is sufficient to make up for the many wrongs it has committed.
2) I don't really even understand why this is such a good thing. I suppose if you're a communist, then it's great, but I tend to be more capitalistic in my leanings. This was already addressed by others here as well - the stipend may be the same (I don't know if it is or not) but the GB and other higher ups definitely get lots of perks. Nicer accommodations, free trips to see the world, speaking in front of thousands of adoring fans wherever they go, etc. Again, another poster already mentioned this as well, but it bears repeating - if they've taken the same vow of poverty and receive the same stipend, how is it that the GB members frequently walk around sporting watches that cost in the 5 figures? They clearly have other sources of income or receive gifts and do not take the lead in giving their "valuable things" to further kingdom interests.
3) The theocratic ministry school is valuable training for some, I'll admit. So is toastmasters, and you don't have to be prepared to sacrifice your life or that of your child should a blood transfusion be medically necessary in order to join toastmasters. Starting your day with the reading of the text may be beneficial to you, but it certainly never was to me.
4) The legal victories that the WTS has accomplished are indeed beneficial to many, but would probably have come about without them eventually. Their fighting for freedom of speech has set many valuable precedents but unfortunately it seems that this same freedom of speech and freedom of religion does not exist for their members. If I, being "on the books" as a JW were to speak to any elder about what I believe (or, more accurately, what I can no longer believe) I would be subject to punishment and shunning. Merely for what I personally think.
5) I'm not sure what you're saying about evolution here. You might want to educate yourself a bit, though. The overwhelming majority of the scientific community is in agreement on evolution, and those that are selected by creationists to attempt to demonstrate discord in the scientific community are often people that have no real familiarity with the field of evolutionary biology. The watchtower society in particular has quoted numerous scientists out of context and even published outright lies on the topic of evolution. There's too much that I can say on this topic to bother putting it in here if it's not going to be read, as this was what caused me to realize that, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the organization was capable of knowingly, willfully lying to me in order to further their interests. If you're actually interested in the topic, PM me and I can send you so me of my notes on this.
Yes, the 1st century christians believed that Jesus would return in their time. I don't see how past failures of christianity is proof that a currently flawed organization has god's backing, though. Furthermore, yes there was much gained (by the org) from the false prophecies like 1975 - many new ones were brought into the fold based on that promise. Many also lost everything because of their trust in it. Wouldn't it be better if they had not been so dogmatic about it and let everyone decide based on their conscience how they would respond? If they're benefiting from lies, how is that in any way godly? Isn't false prophecy a sign of lack of support from god? In fact, in deut. it is listed as a sin deserving of death to speak prophecy in the name of god that does not come true.
You talk about disfellowshipping as though it's a normal thing practiced by all organizations. I'll admit that revocation of membership is often used as punishment by many organizations. If I steal from my job, I'll get fired. But I won't have the entirety of my social circle taken away. My coworkers are not threatened with being fired themselves for merely sharing a drink with me. Furthermore, it takes much less to get disfellowshipped from being a JW than it does to be fired or declared persona non grata by a government. Governments that practice the rules that JWs have (i.e. any speaking out against the leadership, any talk about doubts or disagreements with official policy, etc) are commonly referred to as fascist, totalitarian, oppressive and violators of the rights of their people.
I wonder what problems with the organization you might've had. Without putting too fine a point on it, I wonder if backing down after being given the excuse to "wait on Jehovah" might show a lack of integrity on your part. Should someone truly "wait on Jehovah" when their child has been sexually abused by an elder, but it cannot be "proven" by the two-witness rule? What if they have another child, should they wait until that child is raped as well? Would insisting that the child rapist be removed from the congregation be putting themselves before the organization? Or let me ask this another way - when god's prophet approached king David to instruct him of his wrongs, was that prophet putting himself before "god's organization" of the day? Or was he simply carrying out his duty as he saw it? Was he following his own god-given conscience to set matters straight? We all have a responsibility to right the wrongs that we see, not to just continue floating along. It may seem like a stretch, and it's quite cliche to say this, but that's exactly how things like Nazi Germany happen - many people see the wrongs being perpetrated, but no one does anything for fear of being expelled (killed). You and many others have sat idly by knowing that something isn't right and what has that accomplished? Have the problems you've seen in the organization been fixed? How long should we wait on Jehovah? Maybe Jehovah is waiting on us to take action to bring them back in line with bible standards. Time and again in the bible god's people were held accountable for following a corrupt king or an organization that perhaps once had his blessing but no longer did. Even if these people truly believed they were following god's earthly organization, they were punished for their failure to see or act upon the problems.
In my case, I can say that I'm very much enjoying my life to a greater extent now that I am no longer attending meetings. My wife, however, is still an active JW. So why should I not be interested in what the organization is doing? I love my wife. From my perspective, she's being lied to. Should that not be a concern of mine? History may have examples of people attacking good people only because they are good, but it also has many examples of rebellion against dictators that kill their subjects. Rebellion against totalitarian regimes. Protest of vile corporations and corrupt governments and wars started on false pretenses. How can you tell the difference? How can you tell if we're legitimately mad because we've been lied to, mislead, and injured by this organization or if we're simply bitter because we didn't get our way? If you only look at it through the lens that the organization gives you, it will look like what they say it is. The only way to know for sure is to look at both sides. In my case, I found that the organization had indeed lied to me. Knowing that I now knew that some so-called apostates had legitimate reason to be upset. Further exploration lead me to find many many more reasons to be angry at the organization that I pledged my loyalty to. It's impossible for you to objectively state our motives and intentions without having explored the possibility that we're right.
Now as for your claim that the good points outnumber the bad:
1) Shunning of family members has caused countless suicides and is known by mental health professionals to be the most damaging thing that can be done to a person short of (and in some cases even surpassing) physical violence.
2) The 2-witness rule has lead to countless repeat offenders of child sexual abuse to go free in the congregation to seek their next victims. Reliance upon the family to report to the police (after being warned that it may bring reproach upon Jehovah's name) is insufficient because often the criminal is a family member or the family may feel too much shame at their failure to be able to face police. The watchtower society's rules on this topic have caused untold pain and suffering.
3) The blood ban makes no room for the christian conscience. A few years ago fractions were banned but now they're a "conscience matter." Do you suppose that it might be possible that many died prior to that change who's conscience would have allowed them to accept fractions that are now officially permitted? How many died simply because they followed the organization over their own conscience because to follow their god-given and bible-trained conscience would have meant that they would be shunned by their family? Does this not make the organization itself bloodguilty? Have they ever expressed repentance for the needless loss of life or did they simply change the rules and ignore the damage that they caused? Isn't repentance necessary for forgiveness from god? Does this not mean that you are following a bloodguilty organization that is not repentant and therefore cannot have god's backing?
4) The organization has lied (as I've mentioned above) on many topics to the rank-and-file. Is dishonesty ever acceptable, regardless of the good intentions or positive outcomes?
5) The ban on higher education has prevented thousands from achieving their potential and has resulted in unnecessary hardship on those affected.
6) Discouraging JWs from planning for the future has left many (my parents among them) without hope of a retirement and facing a future of paralyzing medical bills and working until they die.
7) The constant pressure to do more for the organization is demonstrably psychologically damaging and leads to scars that can last a lifetime.
8) The excuses and invalidating responses to genuine doubts and objections to the organization cause lasting psychological damage that can negatively impact relationships for a lifetime.
And I, too, could go on and on. I've beaten your list by 3 points, so you've got some work to do to show that the good outweighs the bad.
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What actually DID you learn?
by punkofnice inmy jw friends that still speak to me, tell me that they love the meetings because of the things they learn.. i wonder what they think they're learning?
it an avenue that always perplexes me because their replies are just so wishy washy or i get a blank stare when i ask.. what's you r experience?.
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OneEyedJoe
I mean when I was a child I learned a lot. Excusing for a moment that most of what I learned was, at best, a layman interpretation of some works of fiction, I did learn things. By the time I was 14 or 15, though, there wasn't much to learn at meetings anymore. I can't see how anyone can claim to learn anything at meetings if they're an adult that was raised in the cult - the only time you learn anything new at that point is when they issue some "new light." So maybe 3-4 times a year.
Maybe some people just have trouble remembering things, so when they hear it for the 40th time it still sounds new?
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JW Religion same as Stock Market/Gambling (Concept)
by Da.Furious infor the last few days i was discussing with a colleague of mine at work about the stock market and how some people, even when losing money, they will hold onto their shares because someone said they will rise again.
this may lead to lost opportunities or even losing all their money instead of de-risking and offsetting loses by buying another stock, in other word jumping ship.. this got me thinking about jws (knowing that i am still in).
took one step back and looked at our family and what we have done by sticking to this religion.
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OneEyedJoe
Yes, much of what keeps many JWs mentally enslaved is what amounts to the sunk cost fallacy. -
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Bullet Head Splane Governing Body Member Improper Skull Devlopment Suggest?
by Brokeback Watchtower ini subject to you some pictures of splane, which can examine and form you own opinion.
before gb:.
may i suggest that the before pic he was not so pointy but the after pick he he seems to have gained length with a shrinkage of width.
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OneEyedJoe
When you lose your hair it changes the way your head looks more than you'd think.
Can we please stop with the inane conspiracy theories and seeing every little thing as significant?
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Watchtower Policy Claims Another Teenager
by Lee Elder ina tragic story of how the watchtower unduly influenced or brain washed a 14 year old jehovah's witness into martyrdom.
the real irony here is the synthetic blood that failed was a hemoglobin solution, and red blood cells are nothing but tiny doughnut shaped bags of hemoglobin.
any thinking person will conclude that if red cells are blood, then so is hemoglobin.
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OneEyedJoe
Alone with his teacher, Dennis said that if he were to die, he might be among the 144,000 believers and nonbelievers chosen to spend eternity in heaven with Jehovah.
Poor kid didn't even understand the doctrine...
I wonder if they might've been able to save him had the doctor talked to him alone much earlier on, instead of waiting for the elders and other cultists to spend days pressuring him to kill himself 24 hours a day.
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Antimatter not so different after all ... poor old Freddy wrong again,another light dims in the JW heavens.
by fulltimestudent inback in the years after ww2, newly discovered antimatter was perceived as destroying ordinary matter, so in one of old freddy's insane nightmares (forget which book, but it was the early 1950's) he envisioned yhwh-jesus hurling antimatter at the hated humans who refused to submit to him, and destroying their bodies bit by bit.. now, his vision dims:.
antimatter not so different after all.
scientists help make first measurement of antiproton attraction.
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OneEyedJoe
It probably behaves similarly, but it will still annihilate ordinary matter upon contact. You can tell, though, that the JW nonsense about god using antimatter to do his genocide was poorly researched, though. If he did that for just a single person the energy released would be enough to destroy the entire planet. -
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We talk a lot about conditional friends on here
by cappytan inso, when people post about being shunned by their friends, i've heard several posters say things like, "their friendship is conditional.
real friendships aren't conditional.".
i'm sorry, but that just isn't really true.. if you and i were friends, there are conditions.
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OneEyedJoe
Yeah, I tend to agree. There's conditions to everything. The point, though, is that when those conditions include privately held beliefs/morals or things done in private that don't impact the other party in any way, that's someone attempting to enforce an undue level of control over your life. It's just easier to call it unconditional love than to go into all the ins and outs.
One other difference is that many people (though they may not get there immediately) can still find it within themselves to wish another person well even after ending a friendship due to being wronged. Even if they no longer wish to pursue the relationship, they can forgive and forget. That, to me, is the only version of unconditional love that can really be said to exist. And much of the time it's wholly absent in JWs. I've heard the most vitriolic slander spoken about people merely because they no longer attend meetings. They haven't even wronged anyone in any way, they simply don't believe it. Yet they are spoken against and many JWs will miss no opportunity to make their life more difficult.
I get it that when people don't see someone twice a week, their friendship is probably going to drop off and not be as close. People lose touch. That's fine. When people are suggesting that simply because you're not around you're lying, cheating on your spouse, stealing or (honestly, I've heard all of these said about apostates by their family members, and the only justification given was their apostasy) plotting to purchase a bunch of guns and shoot up a kingdom hall - that's the sort of stuff that crosses the line. The fact that most JWs are mentally prepared to treat you like you don't exist merely for failure to believe the insane claims of 7 men in NY demonstrates that not only do they not show unconditional love, but that they don't really love to begin with.
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Possible crack in the door that I can expose
by WasOnceBlind inso on monday when i went to pick up my son from my mom i noticed a framed print out of a poem on my moms living room.
it was in spanish but i read it and i was kind of surprised at what it said.
i don't remember it verbatim but i would go as far as to say it had some apostate factors in there.
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OneEyedJoe
In my opinion there is a difference between the actual teaching and how most dubs rationalize it in their lives.
My wife would never agree that only witnesses will survive to the new system but she wouldn't disagree with the WTS viewpoint either. Weird right?
Maybe the lady that rejected his door knocking efforts did die at armageddon and was resurrected? That would fit dub theology.
Agreed. When I said something about how JWs believe that only JWs will survive armageddon, she responded "I've never believed that." A friend of mine similarly refuted that belief, indicating that he believed that J will read the hearts of everyone on earth. My question, then, was why are we bothering to preach if he's going to read everyone's heart? If they don't have to do anything more than be good at heart, then why are we going around telling people 'what god requires of them' and just let them be? That's when they start inventing their own theology and saying things about how loving the organization is and how it's the best way of life.
I myself struggled with this teaching and had to tell myself that they'd gotten it wrong, but that was one of my major doubts. I guess if you're the type that really wants truth, you'll see that pulling one string quickly causes the whole thing to come apart. If you're just in it for the social support or a sense of self-righteousness, you can invent a hastily stacked house of cards made from excuses and as long as you don't touch it, it stays up.
Then there's the spiteful, bigoted, self-righteous JWs (usually elders) who wholeheartedly believe that anyone who's not a JW will die at armageddon.
As for the JW theology allowing for the woman to die at armageddon and be resurrected - I don't think that's correct. I think for her to make it she would've had to die moments before armageddon, but if she lasted to armageddon and god had to be the one to kill her, he doesn't bring her back. If, after all, god kills her at armageddon only to bring her back, this could not possibly be just. If Jesus died for everyone's sins, then this would be a needless death.
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bust fellow worker leaving job 2 hours to go to KH
by JunkYardDog inthe last 2 tuesdays one of my fellow workers would step out for 2 hours.
tonight he came back with a wt book in spanish .
i worked with his this man year and never knew he was a jw.. i went into how the wt lied to the mexician gov't just to own the land of the kh's .
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OneEyedJoe
Typical freeloading, lazy, entitlement-minded, JW moocher. Report his dumb ass to the Boss immediately, and have a good, clean conscious. After all, Jehovah will provide for him.
Yeah, you'll be doing him a favor! We all know that anyone who gets fired for going to meetings will find a better paying job that very same day! Plus it'll be fewer hours and he'll enjoy the work more!