Posts by Tiresias

26

Nebuchadnezzar's Dream--The Death of His Dynasty

by Tiresias in

following my departure from the jehovah's witnesses, i have done my own research using preterism as a primary lens.

i would like to share my understanding of daniel chapter 2:.

31 "you looked, o king, and there before you stood a large statuean enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance.

Tiresias

Hello Viviane,

I would say that your dogmatic declaration and your nails of specificity have crafted the perfect coffin for "prophecy." No room to maneuver within this casket.

T

26

Nebuchadnezzar's Dream--The Death of His Dynasty

by Tiresias in

following my departure from the jehovah's witnesses, i have done my own research using preterism as a primary lens.

i would like to share my understanding of daniel chapter 2:.

31 "you looked, o king, and there before you stood a large statuean enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance.

I understand your frustration. I cannot count the number of unfruitful exchanges I've experienced. Forum discussions all-too-often descend into a skeet shoot wherein an idea is advanced only to be shot down quickly. I remember feeling so battle-fatigued in one forum that I simply disengaged and determined to never again subject myself to such misery.

You raise some good points about prophecies that are ostensibly unfulfilled. I can only say that there are times when Preterists, Historicists, and Futurists must declare: "I don't know!" Because I am shortsighted (literally, I can see only objects that are close by!) my lenses help my eyes transcend their limitations--to a point. But my vision is not telescopic. It is limited, even with corrective lenses. And so it is with Preterism (bible prophecy was fulfilled in the past), Historicism (bible prophecy was fulfilled throughout recorded history), and Futurism (bible prophecy has yet to be fulfilled).

My fear is that the meaning-making optics we bring to Bible study all-too-often become ideological, meaning that our perspective becomes self-evidently true and morally justifiable. The Bible then becomes a lamp that is rubbed and the hermeneutic genie appears. Only, the genie's wish becomes my command. The Bible becomes a tool of control.

So let me simply repeat, "I don't know" what Zechariah or Ezekiel had in mind when they spoke about re-built temples, scattered Israelites, and such. I can only say that what I "see" with my hermeneutic (interpretive) lenses makes sense--to me. But my so-called "lenses" are still very limited, historically, linguistically, and culturally, in regards to the ancient Hebrew world. So, there it is.

Bye for now!

T

26

Nebuchadnezzar's Dream--The Death of His Dynasty

by Tiresias in

following my departure from the jehovah's witnesses, i have done my own research using preterism as a primary lens.

i would like to share my understanding of daniel chapter 2:.

31 "you looked, o king, and there before you stood a large statuean enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance.

Tiresias

Hello Eden,

I read your treatment of Daniel 2 and I must say, I am impressed! The detail is staggering. I find it so interesting that we arrived at the same conclusion without ever having discussed the issue.

My line of inquiry began with the question, 'How did the vision apply to Daniel's contemporaries.' Of course, my hypothesis was that the vision did indeed apply to Daniel's contemporaries. I then sought confirmatory or disconfirmatory historical evidence. My research was tantamount to an archaeological dig.

I'm very interested to know what idea prompted your mental trajectory? (i.e. the supposition that Nebuchadnezzar's dream did apply to Daniel's people?).

Bye for now!

T

26

Nebuchadnezzar's Dream--The Death of His Dynasty

by Tiresias in

following my departure from the jehovah's witnesses, i have done my own research using preterism as a primary lens.

i would like to share my understanding of daniel chapter 2:.

31 "you looked, o king, and there before you stood a large statuean enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance.

Tiresias

Hello Vidqun,

As I state on my web site, Daniel was a leader speaking to a leader--Nebuchadnezzar II--a dictator, an egomaniac.

“Kingdom” translates the Aramaic word Malkuw meaning everything our English word signifies, “royalty, authority, realm or territory, reign (duration)." I believe Nebuchadnezzar would have understood Daniel to mean "a monarchy": a form of government with a monarch at the head. Knowing that a line of hereditary rulers ( a dynasty) would succeed him would probably have given him some satisfaction.

Daniel's message? 'Within four generations God will wipe your dynasty off the face of the earth!'

Bye for now!

T

26

Nebuchadnezzar's Dream--The Death of His Dynasty

by Tiresias in

following my departure from the jehovah's witnesses, i have done my own research using preterism as a primary lens.

i would like to share my understanding of daniel chapter 2:.

31 "you looked, o king, and there before you stood a large statuean enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance.

Tiresias

Hello Doug Mason,

You suggest that the Book of Daniel "was produced in the 2nd century BCE as a means for strengthening the Jews whose existence was again under threat."

You and I agree on one point, Doug, that the Book of Daniel had an application to the Israelites then living. A contemporaneous application has far more explanatory utility than believing that Daniel spoke over the heads of his contemporaries to generations far removed from his own.

Thank you!

T

26

Nebuchadnezzar's Dream--The Death of His Dynasty

by Tiresias in

following my departure from the jehovah's witnesses, i have done my own research using preterism as a primary lens.

i would like to share my understanding of daniel chapter 2:.

31 "you looked, o king, and there before you stood a large statuean enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance.

Tiresias

Hello Abe,

You ask why God allowed the Romans to ruin that same re-built temple and the city, and then destroy the people of that kingdom if it was a kingdom that would never be brought to ruin?

At the risk of sounding 'evangelical' I will suggest that, with the arrival of Jesus the Messiah, the Judahite Kingdom was replaced by the "Kingdom of the Heavens." Perhaps that is why the writer of Hebrews explains: " But you [Israelites] have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly" (Hebrews 12:22) (NIV) (Parentheses mine].

The act of destroying the temple effectively ended God's relationship with Israel (I believe it is called a 'decree absolute' in marital law: the official end of a marriage). If I take the Scriptures of Israel (Genesis to Revelation) at face value, then both Judaism and Christianity ended with that destructive act. When I say, "Christianity ended" I mean the Messianic movement within Israel served its purpose by redeeming Israelites from the throes of Judaism and lifting them to a higher plane of existence (termed the 'snatching away or 'rapture') in 1 Thessalonians. Therefore, that kingdom stood forever, so to speak.

I should clarify that I can find no evidence of an outreach to "Gentiles" in the Bible. But that's another topic

Thank you, Abe.

T

26

Nebuchadnezzar's Dream--The Death of His Dynasty

by Tiresias in

following my departure from the jehovah's witnesses, i have done my own research using preterism as a primary lens.

i would like to share my understanding of daniel chapter 2:.

31 "you looked, o king, and there before you stood a large statuean enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance.

Tiresias

Hello Vanderhoven7,

My web site is http://www.freewebs.com/gwencarm/. I call the site "The Secret Synagogue." It's aim is to provide people in high control movements with critical optics to see the Bible--not as a tool of control--but as an anthology of ancient Israelite literature. The light out of the psychic prison is understanding how we created it in the first place.

Thank you!

T

26

Nebuchadnezzar's Dream--The Death of His Dynasty

by Tiresias in

following my departure from the jehovah's witnesses, i have done my own research using preterism as a primary lens.

i would like to share my understanding of daniel chapter 2:.

31 "you looked, o king, and there before you stood a large statuean enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance.

Tiresias

Hello All,

Thank you for your replies. EdenOne I'm so interested to know how you arrived at your conclusion. For me, the research was a hard slog (but uplifting, nonetheless!).

Crazyguy, I love how you say something "made sense." I'm interested in your perspective about the date of Daniel's authorship, if you have time.

Hi Bart (love that surname!). No, the ten toes have no significance, in my opinion. The vision is not the same as others in the Book of Daniel. Whereas in Daniel Chapter 4 Nebuchadnezzar is pictured as a "tree," in Daniel Chapter 2 his dynasty is pictured as an image. I think it was important for the Israelite captives to know when they could return home. Daniel's vision undoubtedly would have heartened them.

Hello Ablebodiedman. Great question. With your indulgence I will paraphrase Daniel 2:44:

"During the reign of those kings [Nabonidus and Belshazzar] the God of heaven [not a lifeless Babylonian idol] shall replace your dynasty with a government that shall never be brought to ruin [by foreign enemies, dynastic succession, or political intrigue]. That divine government [expressed through God's "anointed" King Cyrus] shall shatter your dynasty and continue to exert its power [on behalf of Israel] indefinitely." The "it itself" statement, then, would apply to God as Supreme ruler.

Given that Daniel had his own people, the exiled Hebrews, in mind, the subtext of his revelation was that God would re-establish His Kingdom in Judah. That kingdom would not be destroyed without His decree. The sovereign God had permitted the Babylonians to conquer Judah, and that same God would crush the Babylonian dynasty out of existence. As I mentioned above, such message would have greatly heartened the captive Jews in Babylon until they were repatriated to Judah to re-build the Temple. It seems to me that the message of Daniel was that 'the heavens are ruling,' notwithstanding what Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity imagined.

Bye for now!

T

26

Nebuchadnezzar's Dream--The Death of His Dynasty

by Tiresias in

following my departure from the jehovah's witnesses, i have done my own research using preterism as a primary lens.

i would like to share my understanding of daniel chapter 2:.

31 "you looked, o king, and there before you stood a large statuean enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance.

Tiresias

Following my departure from the Jehovah's Witnesses, I have done my own research using Preterism as a primary lens. I would like to share my understanding of Daniel Chapter 2:

31 "You looked, O king, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth." —The New International Version

Daniel tells Nebuchadnezzar, “You yourself are the head of gold.” That is, you personally, and not his Babylonian "empire." Here, then, is my interpretation of the dream with its immense image: Nebuchadnezzar II (head of gold) (605-562 B.C.E)
Amel-Marduk (chest and arms silver) (562-559)
Nergal-sharezer (belly and thighs of brass) (559-555)
Labashi-Marduk (legs of iron) (556)
Nabonidus and Belshazzar (feet of iron and clay) (555-539)

Bible dictionaries tell us that the final “kingdom” of Nabonidus and his son Belshazzar was, in fact, divided and weakened due to Nabonidus’ attempt to promote the worship of an Assyrian moon god in Babylon. It is said that this act split the country of Babylonia in two. Other affronts to the Babylonian gods by Nabonidus deepened the unrest and weakened his Kingdom—such as being absent from a New Years Festival thereby making its observance impossible. That religious division left Babylonia in a weakened state and thus vulnerable to attack by the Persians. It is said that Babylon had also been weakened economically due to Nabonidus’ prodigious spending on building projects.

When did the stone strike the image on its weakened feet? I suggest during the reign of Nabonidus and Belshazzar. The event is recorded in Daniel Chapter 5. Strange ‘writing on the wall’ that only Daniel could interpret appeared during Belshazzar’s feast in honor of his Babylonian deities. The writing was interpreted thus: God, the Supreme Auditor, had numbered the days of Belshazzar’s kingdom [his time was up!], weighed it in the balance and found it wanting [he was worthless], and his kingdom was divided and given to the Medes and Persians [he was about to be conquered]. That conquest occurred that very night. The stone (an oppositional power led by God's "messiah" Cyrus) had struck the feet of the image. That Persian power vanquished Babylon and "filled" the earth (i.e., dominated the fertile crescent).

If you are interested in my other research, please let me know and I will share my website. Your comments are most welcome.

Bye for now!

Teresias

56

Need help understanding scriptues in Mathew. just trying to show my wife the BORG is soooo wrong

by goingthruthemotions in

as you know i am still in but have no strong conviction for this cult..but i still go because my wife is still asleep to the false teachings.

for a few months now...when we have family study it is stricly from the bible.

which is great, while we study we are taking the bible as it is, i think it is opening her eyes and how important jesus is.

Tiresias

Hello Everyone,

I enjoy the respectful atmosphere of this forum. A refreshing contrast to those on-line battlefields and slugfests masquerading as 'places for dialogue.'

Like many here, I have always wanted to understand the Bible. In fact, my research into the scriptures often put me at odds with other Witnesses. I have now had seven years to think things through. But to the point!

Two Witnesses approached me in a local park with their literature, to which I politely responded, "I have enough Jewish literature to read, thank you!" One of them began asking me questions while the other suspiciously scrutinized my every move. I sensed that the latter was filtering my comments.

Long story short, I simply stated that I believe the Bible--from Genesis to Revelation-- to be an anthology [a collection] of ancient Jewish literature. I suggested that Paul's synagogue circuit in the Acts of Apostles confirms that Paul was solely interested in reaching his brother Israelites scattered among "the nations" [not "Gentiles].

They seemed especially alarmed when I proposed that modern Judaism and Christianity are societal fictions founded on a misreading of the Bible. I then invited them to review my research, to which the speaker replied "not a chance!"

Too bad! Perhaps a completely different line of inquiry might have saved them years of frustration. You may find something on my web site that furthers your understanding: 'remove the root and you wither the bloom,' I say. Look forward to a discussion.

Bye for now!

http://www.freewebs.com/gwencarm