Posts by Narkissos

8

Need a refresher course ;)

by Gutterpunk in

i left the jw 15 years ago, just before my 19th (non-)anniversary.

my brother was the first, but eventually the rest of the familly followed suit.. turns out that a failed "post jw" relationship convinced my mother to go back.

i don't mind really, i don't hold any grudge against the jw and so far she doesn't seem to want to respect my shunning (if i am indeed shunned... i became inactive, and never heard of the jw again... i must be, but it's beside the point right now).

Narkissos

Welcome gutterpunk!

I left before you did but afaik the position of the "King of North" is still vacant: you can apply if you feel like it...

161

FlyingHighNow Needs Our Love & Support

by snowbird in

jw
friends

her son, jesse, is in serious condition.. my son is in surgery and may lose his hand and arm.. jesse got an infection in a cut on his finger.

his finger and hand swelled to the size of an arm .. .

they have to do surgery on his hand and arm.

Narkissos

34

1930's Great Crowd - Still a "generation" problem?

by xelder in

the recent "generation" explanation redo says that the generation means the anointed living now, and we can still have more anointed, therefore there is no limit on how long the generation can run.

this is an attempt to keep 1914 alive and healthy.. however, the wts still teaches that the great crowd began to be gathered in the 1930's (ex: rutherford had people stand and said "behold, the great multitude) since revelation defines the great crowd as coming out of the great tribulation, doesn't that create a life span problem?

what is going through the minds of even the youngest baptized 10 year old members of the great crowd in 1935 who are now in there 80's.. the other sheep of john 10 seems to fit a discription of gentiles.

Narkissos

Maybe the next-to-last generations of the "great crowd" "other sheep" who die for the last one to survive have a preparatory function, a bit like the dinosaurs in WT paleontology? Dying is such a... die-hard habit that you can't get rid of it at the first try.

Which makes me think that it took 40 years for one generation to die in the desert, so that the next might enter the promised land... 1935 + 40 = 1975! Hmm... forget about that.

More seriously (?) I was thinking that the notion of being of the "other sheep" vs. "great crowd" would equate JWs more and more with pre-Christian believers (from Abel to John the Baptist) in their own eyes; but it is quite possible, as TD suggests, that it equates them with "just anybody". Well, the remaining JWs might finally come to serve Jehovah for nothing, and answer Satan at last!

31

Governing Body's excuse - "the apostles made mistakes too"

by xelder in

we have all heard how the gb can make mistakes and it's ok because jesus apostles had wrong expectations too.

for instance.

peter had faults, james and john too - also, "lord, are you restoring the kingdom to isreal at this time" - etc.

Narkissos

jwdecendent,

I have no doubt F.W. Franz and WT leaders in general sincerely believed the 1975 thing. The idea came up in the late 60s, during a very unusual period in the Western world, combining a lot of anxiety and enthusiasm, when 5-10 years away was "long-range": anything could happen.

I think the coincidence of two independent (although both goofy) WT calculations was just too big a temptation for a "no-coincidence" mindset to resist. People who were 20 in 1914 would be 80 in 1974 (all by the old WT definition of "this generation"); and mankind would be just 6,000 years old in 1975 (by WT calculations again). The two theories came too close not to attract and confirm each other in most WT minds.

We became JWs in 1972, in a congregation which was quite assertive about 1975 (I remember asking an elder, "what will you do if it doesn't happen en 1975?" and he answered "I don't even want to wonder about that: it will happen in 1975"); my father would always point to "nobody knows the day and hour" "at the time you do not think" -- and he appeared as lacking faith, even in my own eyes. Eventually a new congregation was created where we lived, and it was much more moderate. The last end-time frenzy was in 1973-4 with the first oil crisis (my father bought a lot of food stock which was lost). But as the date approached it was, in effect, forgotten. Too close, it became too clearly irrealistic. I remember I realised the date was past when I heard an elder friend joking on "Exactly 6,000 years ago, Adam had been in his garden for a couple of weeks, and for the first time he saw a lion's tail."

I know the statistics indicate a big fall in numbers worldwide after that, but I can't remember anyone I knew leaving for this reason (not even in our first congregation). I for one enjoyed the new direction of WT literature from 1976 on -- less end-time scenarii and doctrine in general, more "spiritual". That was during this period that I, too, left high school to "pioneer"...

I suppose this has affected my approach to "Bible prophecies" as well, because I know from firsthand experience how "faith" which starts with eschatology (end-time expectations) can survive failed prophecies and more generally outgrow its original setting completely.

34

1930's Great Crowd - Still a "generation" problem?

by xelder in

the recent "generation" explanation redo says that the generation means the anointed living now, and we can still have more anointed, therefore there is no limit on how long the generation can run.

this is an attempt to keep 1914 alive and healthy.. however, the wts still teaches that the great crowd began to be gathered in the 1930's (ex: rutherford had people stand and said "behold, the great multitude) since revelation defines the great crowd as coming out of the great tribulation, doesn't that create a life span problem?

what is going through the minds of even the youngest baptized 10 year old members of the great crowd in 1935 who are now in there 80's.. the other sheep of john 10 seems to fit a discription of gentiles.

Narkissos

HB: the WT interpretation of exanastasis (hapax NT) in Philippians 3:11 as "earlier resurrection" is utterly fanciful. Exanastasis and anastasis are actually synonyms. If anything the double prefix ex + ana emphasises the meaning of re-surrection from the angle of its origin, as being from the dead, tèn exanastasis tèn ek tôn nekrôn (as opposed to a figurative or "spiritual" notion of resurrection for instance) but it has absolutely no temporal nuance (as in "earlier resurrection"): this is an unwarranted extrapolation from the pattern of the first resurrection in Revelation, which has no real echo in Pauline writings.

34

1930's Great Crowd - Still a "generation" problem?

by xelder in

the recent "generation" explanation redo says that the generation means the anointed living now, and we can still have more anointed, therefore there is no limit on how long the generation can run.

this is an attempt to keep 1914 alive and healthy.. however, the wts still teaches that the great crowd began to be gathered in the 1930's (ex: rutherford had people stand and said "behold, the great multitude) since revelation defines the great crowd as coming out of the great tribulation, doesn't that create a life span problem?

what is going through the minds of even the youngest baptized 10 year old members of the great crowd in 1935 who are now in there 80's.. the other sheep of john 10 seems to fit a discription of gentiles.

Narkissos

If the opening of a "second class" in 1934/5 is no longer justified theoretically because (1) the "first class" was fully booked then [*check*] OR (2) they were to be the last generation of the old 'system of things' AND the first generation of the new one [*check*], OR even politically because (3) the WT's authority over a large group was warranted by its 'representing' a smaller 'spirit-begotten' group (the FDS) -- now the GB by its own apostolic-like authority governs both "classes" alike [*check*] it has lost much of its interest. Even though, as has already been pointed out, very few JWs are actually able to step back and see the problem from such a perspective.

However the WT cannot easily discard the two-class system, even though they don't need it as much as they used to, because it is directly linked to two of its characteristic beliefs aka appeal products: (1) the "last days" (even by a very vague definition) and (2) "paradise earth". What will probably happen more and more is that JWs will disconnect the notions of "earthly hope" and "never dying," and "choose" their "class" on their own personal inclination and fantasy.

Side remarks

(1) the description of the "great crowd" in the imagery of Revelation (white robes, cf. 6:9-11; 22:14) suggests the very opposite of "not dying," i.e. martyrdom.

(2) Christianity as a whole survived its early conception of being the "last generation" ("we the living," etc.)

10

How does it worK?

by greenie in

i'm curious about bethel and brooklyn.

how does bethel work?

i'm told that no one gets paids and everyone's work there is voluntary.

Narkissos

Long ago "pioneers" did make some money by selling WT literature they bought at a much lower rate. But the income was negligible in most cases because the selling price was low anyway. Now that literature isn't "sold" anymore I doubt anybody makes any money on it, unless some have developed a gift to make people "donate".

10

How does it worK?

by greenie in

i'm curious about bethel and brooklyn.

how does bethel work?

i'm told that no one gets paids and everyone's work there is voluntary.

Narkissos

Bethel members receive a small monthly allowance (don't know how much now, I think it was about $80 25 years ago) in addition to food and shelter, plus they have a "personal expense account" which is credited yearly for clothes etc. I personally found this situation financially much easier than that of "special pioneers" who had everything (rent, food, clothes etc.) to pay on their monthly allowance (about $200 back then).

14

To understand the Bible, must we "Read between the lines?"

by garyneal in

this post goes out to any active jehovah's witnesses who are either actively engaged in or simply lurking the topics on this web site.

my wife is a jehovah's witness who is currently an unbaptized publisher hoping (as she stated as her goal) to become baptized.

needless to say, i am not and we go to different churches (hers is the kingdom hall and mine is a small community church).. anyway, this past sunday (september 7, 2009) one of the brothers gave a talk about how some people pick a church based on the fact that it seems to "feel good to them" rather than base it on whether or not they truly teach the bible.

Narkissos

We all "read between the lines" -- actually the more we are interested in a text the more we will tend to read into it, especially if it belongs to a completely different age and culture and was not addressed to us. The modern, scholarly understanding of exegetical discipline (bordering on asceticism somehow) is all about refraining from doing so, being as uncreative as possible in reading, and the result is often very frustrating to those who want the texts to "speak directly to them".

That's a great opportunity for self-appointed teachers (individuals or organisations) who have no such scholarly scruples and can make up a good storyline out of the texts and people's desire for meaning, salvation etc. People learn the storyline first and then read it into whatever texts they read... This is true of all catechisms to some extent, but the WT 'educational' system is exemplary in this regard: most JWs have learnt to ask WT questions, repeat WT answers, read WT prooftexts long before they venture into reading the Bible texts themselves. And if they get lost (i.e., when they don't know what to read between the lines to connect what they are actually reading with the WT storyline) they have the "right" explanation for almost any single verse in the corpus of WT literature available through indexes and now CD-ROM.

"Relying on human understanding" is what is involved in any type of reading -- scholarly or confessional, mainstream or sectarian; "relying on one's own understanding" (either in choosing between extant interpretations or making up your own) simply implies accepting your responsibility in the process, rather than shifting it on somebody else.

Side remark: most if not all of "scripture" was produced by some kind of creative eisegesis, i.e. reading a new story into older texts and rewriting them accordingly.

31

Governing Body's excuse - "the apostles made mistakes too"

by xelder in

we have all heard how the gb can make mistakes and it's ok because jesus apostles had wrong expectations too.

for instance.

peter had faults, james and john too - also, "lord, are you restoring the kingdom to isreal at this time" - etc.

Narkissos

jwdecendent

Some of the examples I gave from the NT, especially in sayings ascribed to Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels (see my first post on this thread), were predictions; not referring to a precise date perhaps but including clear time indications (e.g., "you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes," "some standing here will not taste death before...," "this generation shall not pass before..."). At some point they became just as clearly unfulfilled predictions, needing either correction or reinterpretation, which was provided within the development of the texts for the most part. Applying the "Deuteronomy standard" (too?) strictly to "Bible prophecies" (OT and NT) would rule many of them out as "false prophecies". The "Deuteronomy standard" is actually challenged by a number of OT texts, with the idea that Yhwh changes his mind for instance (Jeremiah, Jonah, and many narratives from Genesis onward).