Gerard: yes there are three articles on the subject in Le Figaro: apparently the documents are about 1998 (!!!) contracts... and mention Charles Pasqua, who had left Chirac's party for years...
Narkissos
JoinedPosts by Narkissos
-
39
Saddam bribed Chirac?
by MegaDude iniraqi govt.
papers: saddam bribed chirac .
baghdad, iraq, jan. 28 (upi) -- documents from saddam hussein's oil ministry reveal he used oil to bribe top french officials into opposing the imminent u.s.-led invasion of iraq.. the oil ministry papers, described by the independent baghdad newspaper al-mada, are apparently authentic and will become the basis of an official investigation by the new iraqi governing council, the independent reported wednesday.. "i think the list is true," naseer chaderji, a governing council member, said.
-
-
-
39
Saddam bribed Chirac?
by MegaDude iniraqi govt.
papers: saddam bribed chirac .
baghdad, iraq, jan. 28 (upi) -- documents from saddam hussein's oil ministry reveal he used oil to bribe top french officials into opposing the imminent u.s.-led invasion of iraq.. the oil ministry papers, described by the independent baghdad newspaper al-mada, are apparently authentic and will become the basis of an official investigation by the new iraqi governing council, the independent reported wednesday.. "i think the list is true," naseer chaderji, a governing council member, said.
-
-
Narkissos
Well, wait and see.
Not that I would be surprised: Chirac and his party have a long history with bribery.
For the moment I just notice that those "documents", whoever made them, were quite easier to find than WMD -- even in an occupied country with "collaborationist" officials.
I so hope all this is true - as I have said before on this board -- the French are only interested in the French
Just as the US (I do not say "Americans") are in every strategic place in the entire world? -
77
Resurrection Appearance to James the Just
by Leolaia inapostle paul provides an early list of jesus' resurrection appearances in 1 corinthians 15. it is important because this list was written before our canonical gospels were written and thus serves as an independent source of information.
paul writes:"christ died for our since, in accordance with the scriptures; that he was buried and that he was raised to life on the third day, in accordance with the scriptures; that he appeared first to cephas and secondly to the twelve.
next he appeared to more than 500 of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died; then he appeared to james, and then to all the apostles; and last of all he appeared to me too; it was as though i was born when no one expected it.
-
-
Narkissos
Gumby: If I'm not mistaken, there were 6 posters on this thread (including yourself, asking approximately the same question twice): could you please tell me what is YOUR problem with it?
-
77
Resurrection Appearance to James the Just
by Leolaia inapostle paul provides an early list of jesus' resurrection appearances in 1 corinthians 15. it is important because this list was written before our canonical gospels were written and thus serves as an independent source of information.
paul writes:"christ died for our since, in accordance with the scriptures; that he was buried and that he was raised to life on the third day, in accordance with the scriptures; that he appeared first to cephas and secondly to the twelve.
next he appeared to more than 500 of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died; then he appeared to james, and then to all the apostles; and last of all he appeared to me too; it was as though i was born when no one expected it.
-
-
Narkissos
Leolaia:
I still find Paul?s explicit references to the Lord?s teaching are remarkably ideological, not verbal (that?s what I meant with ?nonliteral?, which was actually an understatement). And his verbal parallels with the Gospels (including Thomas) are not referred to the Lord. This suggests to me that the general idea Paul had of Jesus? teaching (through the Hellenistic chuches) on subjects such as divorce, paid apostoleship or taxpaying is distinct from his apparent knowledge of pre-Gospel literary material, confirming IMO that the latter was not originally referred to Jesus. The use of the same kind of material by EpJames, also not referred to Jesus, seems to corroborate this suspicion.
About the Kingdom of God in parables, perhaps I was not clear enough: the exegetical consensus I have in mind (including perhaps scholars such as Luz, Davies & Allison, or Fitzmyer, but unfortunately I cannot check it now) is that the oldest core of parabolic material referred to Jesus did not mention the Kingdom of God, and that this mention is redactional (i.e., pertaining to Mark-Matthew-Luke, not Jesus). Your suggestion, in fact, admits the distinction but reports it to an earlier stage (the parable itself is older, Jesus brings the Kingdom of God into the picture). I still wonder: what evidence is there that the Kingdom of God was actually the central theme of the historical Jesus? teaching, as it appears in the synoptic Gospels?
Just as a note about Simon bar Kosba: it?s interesting how his original name was the object of two opposite puns: bar Kokhba, ?son of the Star?; bar Koziba, ?son of the Lie?...
Kenneson: You?re right as far as the Acts narrative is concerned. However, I feel the character of Barnabas in Acts is used as an artificial device to connect and subordinate Paul to the Jerusalem apostles, according to the general harmonizing view of Acts. After Acts 15, Barnabas recedes into the background (as Peter did in Acts 12), so that Paul remains as the main character until the end of the book. The petty argument between Paul and Barnabas over Mark in Acts seems to cover the really serious difference between them over circumcision (that is, Paul?s ?Christianity? as distinct from James?, Cephas? and Barnabas? ?Judaism??) as it appears in Galatians. That's why I think the first christianoi are really Paul's disciples.
-
31
Manuscript varients betray deliberate altertion of NT
by peacefulpete innon-roman fonts used: spionic .
this article is also available in transliteration and text-only formats.
editor's note: bart ehrman delivered the kenneth w. clark lectures at duke divinity school in 1997. this article, though slightly modified from the oral presentation, preserves the original flavor of the lecture.
-
-
Narkissos
Badboy: there are, of course, a much greater number of 10th century copies of the NT than, say, 2nd to 5th century (in fact, if I'm not mistaken, we have no complete NT text before the 4th century: only fragments and portions before). They are generally less valuable (being copies of copies of copies..., on a longer period, of a more and more standardized text). However, some of them, coming from separate locations and/or textual traditions, may preserve very old variants, so everything has to be examined...
For the OT the situation is quite different, since the complete Hebrew Bible is only available in middle-age copies. Most modern translations are essentially based on the 1008 (11th century) Leningrad Codex. Of course older manuscripts have now been found (such as the Qumran Bible scrolls), and we also have the old translations like the Greek Septuagint which are witnesses to older states of the texts. The evidence shows that a number of editions of the same texts, with different characteristic, coexisted until the last quarter of the 1st century, where the pharisaic-rabbinical standardization of the text began, and most older copies were destroyed.
-
31
Manuscript varients betray deliberate altertion of NT
by peacefulpete innon-roman fonts used: spionic .
this article is also available in transliteration and text-only formats.
editor's note: bart ehrman delivered the kenneth w. clark lectures at duke divinity school in 1997. this article, though slightly modified from the oral presentation, preserves the original flavor of the lecture.
-
-
Narkissos
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/origen.html
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/celsus.html
As far as I know the oldest extant documents about Jesus are in Greek.
-
31
Manuscript varients betray deliberate altertion of NT
by peacefulpete innon-roman fonts used: spionic .
this article is also available in transliteration and text-only formats.
editor's note: bart ehrman delivered the kenneth w. clark lectures at duke divinity school in 1997. this article, though slightly modified from the oral presentation, preserves the original flavor of the lecture.
-
-
Narkissos
yxl1:
-
77
Resurrection Appearance to James the Just
by Leolaia inapostle paul provides an early list of jesus' resurrection appearances in 1 corinthians 15. it is important because this list was written before our canonical gospels were written and thus serves as an independent source of information.
paul writes:"christ died for our since, in accordance with the scriptures; that he was buried and that he was raised to life on the third day, in accordance with the scriptures; that he appeared first to cephas and secondly to the twelve.
next he appeared to more than 500 of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died; then he appeared to james, and then to all the apostles; and last of all he appeared to me too; it was as though i was born when no one expected it.
-
-
Narkissos
Leolaia: Just read your very enlightening Ebionite post. Perhaps my "idée fixe", but I understand the antagonistic connection between adoptianist (or ascending) and gnostic (descending) theology as an incredible misunderstanding, resulting from something similar to what I wrote earlier about "historical Jesus" vs. "myth": a focus issue. The question is, again, who is the main character of the story? To the Ebionites it is the man Jesus -- and then Wisdom, Logos or even Son-of-God theology is just the imaginary background (décor) for his story. To the Gnostic (very loose term) the main character is the heavenly redeemer, and the man Jesus is but a necessary vessel (if not a mere appearance, as in illusionist docetism).
-
77
Resurrection Appearance to James the Just
by Leolaia inapostle paul provides an early list of jesus' resurrection appearances in 1 corinthians 15. it is important because this list was written before our canonical gospels were written and thus serves as an independent source of information.
paul writes:"christ died for our since, in accordance with the scriptures; that he was buried and that he was raised to life on the third day, in accordance with the scriptures; that he appeared first to cephas and secondly to the twelve.
next he appeared to more than 500 of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died; then he appeared to james, and then to all the apostles; and last of all he appeared to me too; it was as though i was born when no one expected it.
-
-
Narkissos
PP: I fully agree that James and his disciples were never ?Christians?. Even in Acts (11:26; 26:28) the word khristianos is only applied to Paul?s disciples (elsewhere in the NT it occurs only in 1 Peter 4:16 which is obviously sub-pauline). French scholar Etienne Nodet had a very interesting article in English entitled James, the Brother of Jesus, was never a Christian, in the French collective work Le judéo-christianisme dans tous ses états ? Actes du colloque de Jérusalem, 6-10 juillet 1998 (Paris, Cerf, 2001, p. 75-85; it probably can be found elsewhere in English). Apart from the denomination, we have no clue that Jesus was ever more than a prophet (such as John the Baptist) to the historical Jamesian theology.
Leolaia: From an earlier post I gather that you would admit the Q wisdom theology being (partly?) secondary to the historical Jesus. To me it would make much sense, because the Q-like sayings in Paul and EpJames are not recorded as ?words of the Lord?. Did I get your point correctly?
Something else: you seem to insist that the ?Kingdom of God? motif is characteristic of the historical Jesus. However, I remember that the ?Kingdom? introductions are usually dismissed as secondary to the parables (Mark 4//). The programmatic summaries such as Mark 1:15// are clearly redactional too. In what sayings do the ?Kingdom? mentions appear ?original? to you?
-
37
Awake! says we can pray in Jesus' name!!!
by Leolaia inaccording to this, jesus is not just the mediator of the 144,000 -- he's the mediator of mankind!!
and apparently "dear jesus" prayers are okay!
the watch tower says i can say, "dear jesus, you are my mediator as you are for all mankind..." "the bible clearly says that jesus christ is mankind's redeemer, so he is mankind's mediator.
-
-
Narkissos
Welcome Joysome!
I think you shouldn't take this too bad. We're just having some fun about something that caused to many of us immense pain, as you understood. And in the fun some serious points do appear, as the role of the WT organization setting itself between "Christians" and "Christ". Perhaps every Christian organization does that to some extent, but the WT is very caricatural at it (as in many other matters).
One thing is sure, when you're in you don't have anymore "your right to do what you feel best for yourself". Or you have to pay it at the tremendous cost of being shunned by everyone you love -- including your own family. This I say from firsthand experience.
Take care,
Narkissos