in another topic "just quit quietly - the law is on your side" there was a lot of discussion about how to leave quietly without getting tagged publicly as "no longer a jw".
here are some legal cases that could be used to show support for leaving quietly.. you have to first send a letter saying you're leaving that specific congregation, and that you don't want them to keep records of you.. if the boe says anything against you here are some court cases that make precedent for bringing a suit against them:.
baugh v. thomas (1970).
ptt and Keyser -
not everyone wants to be driven out - some want to stay associated for the sake of family, grand kids etc. They can take ToMo3 up on his offer to be
¨FREE to leave any time they want¨ and still hang out at the hall with the kids and grandchildren.
You are there now, as part of the general public, FREE as Tony says to chat and greet as you see fit - no need now to act like a cult member -you're FREE and can´t be disfellowshipped - what could be better than that???
in another topic "just quit quietly - the law is on your side" there was a lot of discussion about how to leave quietly without getting tagged publicly as "no longer a jw".
here are some legal cases that could be used to show support for leaving quietly.. you have to first send a letter saying you're leaving that specific congregation, and that you don't want them to keep records of you.. if the boe says anything against you here are some court cases that make precedent for bringing a suit against them:.
baugh v. thomas (1970).
Oppostate-
Thats a great series from Pewforum.org.
And an interesting outcome in the Quinn case, in that, what the church could do to her before her resignation and what it could do to her after her resignation was significantly different.
And Ms. Quinn didn´t even quit quietly while still in good standing - she hit the roof because of their manipulating nasty conduct right in the middle of a judicial process!
Also-
Interesting comment on the first page of your Pewforum link - about paragraph 8 beginning ¨A third type of case...¨ indicating that courts can rule on internal matters as long as they are not intricately bound up with church doctrine (approximate.)
Verbally identifying one as ¨no longer one of Jehovahs Witnesses¨ is not a part of doctrine - just a sneaky little que to inform the stupid to begin something so distasteful that they really don´t ever want to discuss in public or print. Therfore, an issue that could be ruled on by secular court.
Oppostate, I think you are mistaken that your name will not be readout for disasociation - you may not be DFd but the announcemant is currently made for those who disasociate while still in.
Don't involve the elders - just QUIT QUIETLY. Any reaction they have to your having quit is after the fact that you are no longer a member. Look how well that worked out for Ms. Quinn- she's probably still counting her settlement money.
freedon of religion guarantees any individual the legal right to abandon any religion at any time for any reason.. if you are a citizen of a country which champions human rights, then your government doesn t care what religion you join, but they will uphold your freedom to join it, without interference, coercion or persecution.
your countries human rights legislation will conversely uphold your rights when it comes time to abandon any religion you so choose.
those (elders) who incite others interfere, coerce or persecute those who have left will be in transgression of the human rights statutes.. a person is only obligated to ecclesiastic law if he exposes himself to it or transgressed it while still a member of a religious community.. when your time comes to abandon the jw-wt cult, do it while still in good standing, be proactive - be decisive -put it in writing!..and do it before the hounders set sights on you.. write a card or letter with as much or as little explanation as you one day might wish to share with pharisees and lawyers.. take this card to a notary public to have your signature witnessed and have the writing overstamped in several places with the date.
Chaserious -
What defines a tort action and why would human rights claims not qualify as meritorious in the US?
freedon of religion guarantees any individual the legal right to abandon any religion at any time for any reason.. if you are a citizen of a country which champions human rights, then your government doesn t care what religion you join, but they will uphold your freedom to join it, without interference, coercion or persecution.
your countries human rights legislation will conversely uphold your rights when it comes time to abandon any religion you so choose.
those (elders) who incite others interfere, coerce or persecute those who have left will be in transgression of the human rights statutes.. a person is only obligated to ecclesiastic law if he exposes himself to it or transgressed it while still a member of a religious community.. when your time comes to abandon the jw-wt cult, do it while still in good standing, be proactive - be decisive -put it in writing!..and do it before the hounders set sights on you.. write a card or letter with as much or as little explanation as you one day might wish to share with pharisees and lawyers.. take this card to a notary public to have your signature witnessed and have the writing overstamped in several places with the date.
Balaam -
I suspect you are nearly 100% correct. The elders are trained by the WT to shepherd docile, dumbed-down, delusioned sheep of their own making.
Rammy, agressive, insatiably curious goats are a completely different animal - I am a farm boy and learned this the hard way!
I accepted my appointment as an elder years ago because I thought it was a position to help and support others. I cetrtainly would have had no share in supporting the congregation nor the society in any effort to knowingly curb people freedoms, and certainly not to fight freedom in court and look like the fools from New York.
Local elders will be totally unprepared for organized leaving approaches and to be prepared by the society, to persecute those who wish to leave will likely be a huge catylst to losing even more of the current elders.
The congregation/societies legalism will blow up right in their faces. People join churches to enjoy the company of Christians not lawyers
freedon of religion guarantees any individual the legal right to abandon any religion at any time for any reason.. if you are a citizen of a country which champions human rights, then your government doesn t care what religion you join, but they will uphold your freedom to join it, without interference, coercion or persecution.
your countries human rights legislation will conversely uphold your rights when it comes time to abandon any religion you so choose.
those (elders) who incite others interfere, coerce or persecute those who have left will be in transgression of the human rights statutes.. a person is only obligated to ecclesiastic law if he exposes himself to it or transgressed it while still a member of a religious community.. when your time comes to abandon the jw-wt cult, do it while still in good standing, be proactive - be decisive -put it in writing!..and do it before the hounders set sights on you.. write a card or letter with as much or as little explanation as you one day might wish to share with pharisees and lawyers.. take this card to a notary public to have your signature witnessed and have the writing overstamped in several places with the date.
Chaserious -
Thanks again for your interest and knowledgable comments. (I know nothing and need and really appreciate your help)
Your legal point - ¨...principles of contract law requrie you to communicate something with your counterpart.¨
Tony Morris is on public record as asserting that JWs are free to leave any time they want (does anyone know where he said this?) That being the case, we who quit quiety are only responding to the offer of freedom made by one of the societies very own popes.
Therefore there is two-way communication of lawful intents. Yes? Leaving is just our response to the offer they made years ago.
Your legal point - ¨The traditional rule is called the mailbox or posting rule, which makes something in writing effective when you place it in the mail to another party; not when you write it yourself intend for it to secretly have effect.¨
I doubt that a Human rights commission/tribunal would care too much about this. When someone needs to escapes from abuse, the technicalities of the method of escape are irrelevant.
A tribunal enironment is somewhat different from a trial- the needs of the abused are paramount and the legal technicalities and rights of the abuser to continue abuses would be carefully scrutinized and hugely embarrassing for a secretive organizations such as WT/JW. For example - a tribunal would learn that reading of ones name at a meeting is more than just a factual statement , but that it is,and has been for years, the secret que to incite mass discrimination of the named person. This is one example of the very situations that human rights commissions are trying to end. It is also illegal.
For people who wish to stay in some association with those at the hall, like the Gorbies - it might be appropriate to mail their document at some time when it becomes obvious that the hyenas are crazed by the scent of blood. It´s till a done deal, a response to Tonys offer, and an action that is legally protected by human rights law. We could hold the WT/JW strictly liable because it was they who made the offer ,yes?
Please reply.
Ajax
"truth be told is an examination of the clear and present dangers of undue influence in the hands of fanatical religions and other high-control groups.
and it is important for our viewers to understand that the indoctrination, spiritual intimidation, ostracism and other human rights abuses discussed in the film did not just occur in the past.
they are happening right now to millions of jehovah's witnesses and their families worldwide.".
MY my my ...
What brilliant, comprehensive insights the films director Gregorio Smith shows regarding this hypocritical delusional little cult.
Such concise, specific and serious observations will be difficult to translate from verbal to visual realms .
And a big THANK YOU to Danielle Tumminio for her excellent Huffington Post interview/column. Oh the joy and beauty of intellect!!
¨ A God understood is not a God¨
freedon of religion guarantees any individual the legal right to abandon any religion at any time for any reason.. if you are a citizen of a country which champions human rights, then your government doesn t care what religion you join, but they will uphold your freedom to join it, without interference, coercion or persecution.
your countries human rights legislation will conversely uphold your rights when it comes time to abandon any religion you so choose.
those (elders) who incite others interfere, coerce or persecute those who have left will be in transgression of the human rights statutes.. a person is only obligated to ecclesiastic law if he exposes himself to it or transgressed it while still a member of a religious community.. when your time comes to abandon the jw-wt cult, do it while still in good standing, be proactive - be decisive -put it in writing!..and do it before the hounders set sights on you.. write a card or letter with as much or as little explanation as you one day might wish to share with pharisees and lawyers.. take this card to a notary public to have your signature witnessed and have the writing overstamped in several places with the date.
TD-
Human Rights laws are probably administered by your state rather than national- and they vary fron one to another. I noticed that many US states seem more obsessed with threats and damage to propert than damage to people!
You are correct that they are worded somewhat broadly and that is for a purpose. To benefit from them you have to challenge the person or persons who violated your rights -and show how their actions violated those broad principles.
It is inevitable that humans will violate laws of specicity - the more specific and plentiful such laws would be the more the likelyhood of violation. But consider a law which is based on principle, and broadly applied... you might accidentally come close to violating someones rights, (talk foolishly, act in ignorance, not be too socially aware etc), but to actually violate and cause harm to apersons individual freedoms requires a certain amount of intent, possibly even malice.
Intent is absent from mistakes and acts of personal ignorance and can often be remedied by apologies and restitutions. but when there is intent then the perpetrator is likely aware that a violation is taking place, ant the consequences to him is more severe, even punitive., hence damages.
The Watchtower in a 1947 Awake article decried excommunication as a device of pagans to exercise and expand their ecclesiastic power over the layety - then a very few years later the WT adopted the same practice under the name Disfellowship.
Not much doubt about their intent either, stern directions to include more and more imaginary offences and to strike closer and closer to the family unit - separating parentsand grandparents from their children - real malice -courtesy a real bunch of bastards.
freedon of religion guarantees any individual the legal right to abandon any religion at any time for any reason.. if you are a citizen of a country which champions human rights, then your government doesn t care what religion you join, but they will uphold your freedom to join it, without interference, coercion or persecution.
your countries human rights legislation will conversely uphold your rights when it comes time to abandon any religion you so choose.
those (elders) who incite others interfere, coerce or persecute those who have left will be in transgression of the human rights statutes.. a person is only obligated to ecclesiastic law if he exposes himself to it or transgressed it while still a member of a religious community.. when your time comes to abandon the jw-wt cult, do it while still in good standing, be proactive - be decisive -put it in writing!..and do it before the hounders set sights on you.. write a card or letter with as much or as little explanation as you one day might wish to share with pharisees and lawyers.. take this card to a notary public to have your signature witnessed and have the writing overstamped in several places with the date.
Chaserious -
I forgot to respond to your querey about damages. The Human rights commission in my jurisdiction does indeed award damages, for legal costs as well as actual expenses incurred, and damages for injures/ distress suffered.
Furthermore there is a clause of ¨Extended Application¨ meaning that the outcomes of the case may apply to more than just this applicant (obviously some cases are unique) but the outcome of our cases would effect Mormons Muslims and a whole host of immigrant communities trying to throw off the religious restraints of primitive cults.
freedon of religion guarantees any individual the legal right to abandon any religion at any time for any reason.. if you are a citizen of a country which champions human rights, then your government doesn t care what religion you join, but they will uphold your freedom to join it, without interference, coercion or persecution.
your countries human rights legislation will conversely uphold your rights when it comes time to abandon any religion you so choose.
those (elders) who incite others interfere, coerce or persecute those who have left will be in transgression of the human rights statutes.. a person is only obligated to ecclesiastic law if he exposes himself to it or transgressed it while still a member of a religious community.. when your time comes to abandon the jw-wt cult, do it while still in good standing, be proactive - be decisive -put it in writing!..and do it before the hounders set sights on you.. write a card or letter with as much or as little explanation as you one day might wish to share with pharisees and lawyers.. take this card to a notary public to have your signature witnessed and have the writing overstamped in several places with the date.
Chaserious-
Thanks so much for participating in this , I had hoped you would.
Did you ever sell something, issue a receipt to the buyer and then someone comes along and offers you more than the first guy?
Bad timing - too bad for you- the deal is done and he has his receipt. Thats the power of a little piece of signed, dated paper .
Only our little document isn´t just to prove we just bought that anti-gravity machine we always wanted, it´s a legal claim, time stamped that we have alredy exercised a legally recognized human right and that no one is at liberty to inerfere with our decision.
Disfellowshipping can´t happen as we are no longer under the supossed ecclesiastic authority of the abandoned organisation.
Please respond as I highly respect your knowledge and input.
freedon of religion guarantees any individual the legal right to abandon any religion at any time for any reason.. if you are a citizen of a country which champions human rights, then your government doesn t care what religion you join, but they will uphold your freedom to join it, without interference, coercion or persecution.
your countries human rights legislation will conversely uphold your rights when it comes time to abandon any religion you so choose.
those (elders) who incite others interfere, coerce or persecute those who have left will be in transgression of the human rights statutes.. a person is only obligated to ecclesiastic law if he exposes himself to it or transgressed it while still a member of a religious community.. when your time comes to abandon the jw-wt cult, do it while still in good standing, be proactive - be decisive -put it in writing!..and do it before the hounders set sights on you.. write a card or letter with as much or as little explanation as you one day might wish to share with pharisees and lawyers.. take this card to a notary public to have your signature witnessed and have the writing overstamped in several places with the date.
TD -
Your comment regarding conduct is absolutely correct - a page or two ago I mentioned that (If you so chose) you should still be able to attend their Public meetings , but only as an observer, but no longer as a participant - remember , you have already finalized your document declaring that you have abandoned the Wt/JW religious structure, but that doesn´t mean you have abandoned your family who still attend. You still attend to show your support of those you love. (unlike the JWs who shun those they should love)
You are still labouring under the notion that this is about DFing - it is not.
It is about exercising a right without interference. We have a right to leave or change our religion without persecution. When you chose to leave a religion you formerly persued , their influence and authority over you ends. Our little document spells out when this happened - thats when the cults authority ended in our case.
If you prepared ahead and left in good standing (no judicial issues in process) you have left the borg. Do not engage with Hyenas who may proceed to make trouble for you. Take notes of their actions and the actions they incite in others - if they in any way incite others to single you out for exercising a legal right they are in violation of the law.
Now is the time to make them aware (in writing) of just how much you respect Human Rights and how seriously you intend to act if yours are infringed upon by the local Eldubs. There is an example of serious wording in a post above.
The local body will be unprepared for this preemptive approach, as most hoping to escape try to pull off a fade and ultimately get sucked into confrontations with hyenas while they are still ¨in¨ and thus in a position to be disfelowshipped.
Better to prepare your document to solidify your position as 100% ALREADY OUT and then do an appropriate fade - fast if you just want to be gone and slow if you want to hang around for the support and direction of those you love.
Now individual dubs can display their ignorant self-righteousness anytime they want and for any reason they want- it has never been a crime to be a deluded asshole. But inciting someone else to discriminate is a whole different ball game (read carefully human rights acts).
