Posts by OrphanCrow

Himmler was the one who, by the end of the war, had developed a special rapport with the Jehovah's witness. I had, on another thread, detailed the concessions he had in place for them before the war ended.

Wewelsburg Castle. Himmler's castle and quasi religious center for the New Germany. Long story there. Caretakers were all JWs from 1943 on.

There is historical record that dicuments Himmler's pkan to send JWs to areas of conquered land to act as a vangaurd for the Third Reich.

And then there is the man who the Watchtower Society had strong ties with. Felix Kersten. Himmler's doctor.

As far as Canadian Watchtower politics and doctrine in the 60s go, I relate that which was familiar to the area I lived.

24

The Witness beliefs remind me of the Nazis and ISIS

by NAVYTOWN in

jw
friends

the nazi regime hated jews, gays, jws and other minorities.

so they solved the 'problem' by exterminating them.

the current isis group hates jews and christians and beheads those it considers 'enemies' and 'infidels'.

OrphanCrow

I was reading through my notes and realized I need to make a correction. Marley Cole's book that mentions the SS member who was at Watchtower Farms was Trumphant Kingdom.

Prologos, the Himmler worship was evident in the Society men durng the late 50s and the 60s. My father attended the Kingdom Ministry School in Toronto in mid 60s and returned with almost hero worship. I heard the same expressed amongs other JW men of the time

Felix Kersten, in one of his journals, desvribes Himmler's plan for the 1000 year reign of the Third Reich and it is uncannily similar to Bethel and the farm and lots more.

Loyalty and obedience was the motto of Himmler's elite SS.

24

The Witness beliefs remind me of the Nazis and ISIS

by NAVYTOWN in

jw
friends

the nazi regime hated jews, gays, jws and other minorities.

so they solved the 'problem' by exterminating them.

the current isis group hates jews and christians and beheads those it considers 'enemies' and 'infidels'.

OrphanCrow

Prologos, you said:

NS propaganda, Goebbels were False Prophets too, because:

Their doctrine had it that they rule (Reich) had started in ~1933, would last a 1000 years, in the background were 144 pillars, to stand that long, obedience to all commands, "even if they seem to irrational at the time"

no elections, all appointments by fiat.

ostrasizing, shunning, elimination of all those disagreeing.

-- a chosen race-- ruling as kings, --dukes--, a two-tier systems of humans,

Isis? they don't celebrate birthdays, christmas, easter either.

The Nazi SS didn't celebrate Christmas either. Heinrich Himmler was obsessed with creating a 'religion' suitable for his vision of a 'New Germany' in the Thousand Year Reign of the Third Reich that was to follow once Germany had the power to make it happen. And Christmas wasn't part of his new religion.

I would like to add a few words about Himmler's SS and the organization's early days. Briefly. ;)

In the years prior to Hitler and his National Socialist Party taking control of the German government, and well before the start of the Second World War, a small group of elite men were being formed – the SS (AKA – the Order of the Death’s Head). The SS was to be the cream of German society, excemplifying all the virtues and physical characteristics of the ‘Aryan’ people.

This small band of men, the SS, numbered only 280 by 1928 and was overshadowed by another existing group of military men called the SA. Later, the SS was to swell to over 50,000 members by 1932 under the direction of Heinrich Himmler. Originally implemented as a quasi bodyguard unit for Hitler and the Nazi Party, the SS eventually became a powerful force of control and intimidation in the Third Reich.

In the early days of the SS’s formation, however, it was anything but powerful. In fact, one of the duties of the sworn SS man was to distribute and sell the propaganda literature for the Nazi party. (From Order of the Death's Head pg 26-27, Hohne)

In each locality [Gemeinde] the SS was not allowed to exceed ten per cent of the SA, so by 1928 it had only reached the miserable figure of 280 men. The SS elite frequently had to allow themselves to be ordered about by SA commanders and do the chores, such as delivering orders of the day, distributing propaganda material and selling the Volkischer Beobachter. The scale of their achievements can be judged by the following report from the year 1926: "During October the SS recruited throughout the Reich; 249 new members for the NSDAP, 54 new readers for the Volkischer Beobachter, 169 new readers for the Sturmer, 82 new readers for the Nationalsozialist, 140 new readers for the Sudwestdeutscher Beobachter, 475 new readers for the Westdeutscher Beobachter, 189 new readers for the remaining National-Socialist newspapers. In addition 2000 copies of the Illustrierte Beobachter were sold." The report was headed sarcastically; "So this is what we do!"

It appears like those SS officers would have no problem identifying with the Bible Students/Jehovah's witnesses of that time. You know the old saying..."...birds of a feather..." and all that...

I also read a book called Of Pure Blood by Marc Hillel and Clarissa Henry. It is an account of the Lebensborn maternity homes.

Along with the concentration camps being put into place – {concentrating impure and undesirable elements of society into places where they could be managed and kept separate from the population at large) – were the establishment of maternity homes– these were called ‘Lebensborns’. These maternity homes were being established before the war broke out and the purpose of these homes was to breed desirable children for the Fuhrer. Suitable young women, (and these were not just of German origin, Nordic women were very desirable for this role because of their fairness of skin and hair) were paired with Hiltler’s SS men in order to create a Master Race. Over the course of more than a decade, several thousand children were bred, born and distributed out of these maternity homes that were situated throughout Germany and Norway and the Netherlands.

Not only were these ‘bred’ children given to the Fuhrer, the race selection process extended far beyond the confines of Germany itself. By the end of the War, many, many children had been selected and kidnapped from places such as Poland and Russia. The preferred child was fair and blue eyed and would simply be taken from schools, villages, and anywhere where children could be found. They were given to ‘good’ Nazi/German families to be raised and ‘Germanized’.

The authors make reference in one very small place in the book to the Jehovah's Witnesses. If a person blinked, they would miss it...

(pg 104 Of Pure Blood)

…Frau S., for instance, who presented a son to the Fuhrer at Steinhoring in 1943, is now an active Jehovah’s Witness. "Then Hitler was my god," she told us. "Since then, I have found the only true God."

Ah...how easy for the right minded person to switch allegiance from one 'Supreme Ruler'....to another....'Supreme Ruler'....and how easy to give a child in mad adoration to one and then...later, to be asked to lay another on the altar of blood...

James Penton confirms this phenomena, the conversion of those who held Nazi ideologies to that of the Jehovah's Witness ideology, in his book Jehovah's Witnesses and the Third Reich: Sectarian Politics Under Persecution:

Even when the SS became aware of what the Witnesses were doing during these years at Neuengamme and at other camps, they did little to stop them. This meant that the Witnesses could make many converts among other prisoners, both men and women. Many of these were Russians, Ukrainians, Poles and other eastern Europeans, but there were a few Jews as well. Amazingly, too, they converted a few SS guards. All of this was to be very important later for the spread of the Witness message. At the end of the war, Eastern European converts were to take their newly adopted Witness faith back to their homelands, where it was to spread despite the opposition of Communist governments.

Also, Marley Cole, in his(Knorr's) book, Jehovah's Witness and the New World Society, makes reference to a former SS member whom he interviewed, I believe, at the Watchtower Farms. The former member of Himmler's elite had switched his allegiance from Hitler to Jehovah.

71

Watchtower encouraging members to go and preach in Israel

by wannaexit in

jw
friends

an odd letter was read at last nights' meeting.

it was in regards to a special campaign for next year arranged by the governing body to go and preach in israel.

the call is going out to anybody that speaks hebrew and english.

OrphanCrow

Talesin, my purpose in posting from the article was to provide context. The article is relevant in that it establishes that 'serving where the need is great' is a ploy used by the Society in the past in order to accomplish political change .

I did not quote 'out of context' . I added important context which has bearing for today's situation.

It is important not to fragment and compartmentalize information as historical behavoir has relevance .

40

Jehovah's Witnesses are the only people who don't practice war and who preach worldwide!

by EndofMysteries in

this is what somebody has been telling me, trying to convince me aside from anything one can say or cause reason for doubt, as the evidence that they are the true religion and true people of god.

they are convinced because while 'all other' christian and other religions support war, troops, etc, jw's don't and they are the only one's who carry god's name and preach.

nothing else matters.

OrphanCrow

This website http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/jehovah.html makes this claim:

Jehovah's Witnesses, in Germany as in the United States, had refused to fight in World War I.

Apparently, the authors of the Jewish virtual library don't realize that the Jehovah's Witnesses didn't even exist inWW1 and that the followers of the Watchtower Society were called Bible Students then.

A German website claims that the Bible Students in Germany did serve in the military during WW1.

http://www.manfred-gebhard.de/19152Soldaten.htm

According to the German website, there were many of the Bible Students that fought, and died, in WW1.

The names of the German Bible Students who served in WW1 (incomplete):

Ahlften, Hero v. (see WT May 1916 p 78)

Apostle J.

Bader, Wilh. (Abgedruckter letter WT August 1915 p.128)

Balzereit, Fritz

Bashan, Robert

Bastian, Emil (abgedruckter letter WT August 1916 p 127)

Bergerhof, E.

Bobsin, Heinrich (abgedruckter letter WT August 1916 p 127)

Bongardt, H

Bostelmann, W.

Brandt, H.

Brüggert, F.

Buber, W.

Buchholz, Bernard (abgedruckter letter WT August 1916 p 125)

+ Chiarski, Emil (death notice WT December 1915 p.178)

Conzelmann, C.

Craemer, Hermann (abgedruckter letter WT July 1915 p 111)

Degert, Alfons (abgedruckter letter WT August 1916 p.126)

Dick Reuter, A.

Dieffenbacher, Eugene (abgedruckter letter WT July 1916 p 109)

Duddy, G.

Dwenger, Heinrich

Elsaesser, Robert (abgedruckter letter WT July 1916 p 110)

Grandson, F.

Ensenbach, EM

Ensenbach, Felix (abgedruckter letter WT July 1916 p 110)

+ Finger, John (death notice WT November 1915 p 162)

Fischbach, E.

Fischer, J.

Foist, H.

Freschel, Max

Friedrich, Otto (abgedruckter letter WT June 1915 p 96)

Frohlich, M.

Fuchs, E.

Gies, F. (abgedruckter letter WT July 1916 p 110)

Goeldner B.

Gries, H.

Grote, R.

Guddat, F.

Gutwill, H.

Haedike, Otto (abgedruckter letter WT September 1915 p 144)

Hagen, Hermann (abgedruckter letter WT June 1915 p 96)

+ Hamburg, Friedrich (death notice WT December 1915 p.178)

Heinrich, G.

Hellmann, Willi

Henningsen, C.

+ Hess, Fritz (death notice WT December 1915 p 178)

Heusinger, F.

Hilbich, F.

Hildebrandt, Wilh. (Abgedruckter letter WT July 1915 p 110)

Hinz, A.

Hipp, G.

Höhme, O.

Hoffmang, M.

Hoffmann, H.

Hoffmann, R.

Hüners, Wilhelm (abgedruckter letter WT October 1915 p 159)

Huhle Walter (abgedruckter letter WT July 1915 p 111)

Irendart, C.

Jacoby, O.

Jung, Friedrich (abgedruckter letter WT July 1915 S. 112th)

Kaikowski, Th

Kapp, J.

Charles, M.

Catheters, J.

Kelle, W.

Keller, W.

Kessler, Fritz (abgedruckter letter WT July 1915 p 111)

Kipke, E.

Kliegel, Franz (abgedruckter letter WT July 1915 S. 112th)

Kohlmann, J.

+ Kownatzki, Fritz (death notice WT November 1915 p 162)

Krafzig, August (abgedruckter letter WT June 1915 p.96; WT May 1916 p 79; WT July 1916 p 109)

Kreutle, A.

Kröger, A.

Kuschmierz, W.

Labuszewski, C (arl)

+ Lemke, Otto (abgedruckter letter WT August 1915 p 127; death notice WT December 1915 p.178)

Lemke, Reinh.

Lunter, Friedrich (abgedruckter letter WT August 1916 p 127)

Maier, J.

Mark Steiner, H.

+ Martin, Bruno (death notice WT December 1915 p.178)

Masanek J.

Mask, F.

Meyer, K. (abgedruckter letter WT August 1915 p 128)

Meyer, Oskar

Michaelis, R.

Micklich, W.

+ Modes, Martin (abgedruckter letter WT July 1915 p.111; death notice WT November 1916)

Muller, F.

Müller, G. (abgedruckter letter WT July 1916 p 110)

Müller, Konr.

Willi Muller (abgedruckter letter WT September 1915 p 143)

Neukrantz, M. (abgedruckter letter WT October 1915 p 159)

Neumann, O.

Niezboralla, L.

+ Nitzsche, Max (death notice, WT September 1915 p.130)

Noak, A.

Nölke, W.

+ Nohle, Erich (death notice WT December 1915 p.178)

Nolde, G.

Oehler, A.

+ Oschee, Oswald (death notice WT December 1915 p.178)

Ott, R.

Patzer, G.

Paul, F.

Petermann, G.

Raschke, J.

Rice, Aug.

Riedeberger, H.

Riedel, Albert (abgedruckter letter WT January 1916)

Rodemich, J.

Rohwer, J.

Rothstein, Henry (abgedruckter letter WT July 1915 p 110)

Rottmair, G.

Rüttmann, W.

Ruf, A.

Rungesser, F.

Salewski, G. (abgedruckter letter WT August 1915 p 127)

Sauer, BC

Sauerwein, P. (abgedruckter letter WT March 1916 p 47)

Scheuch, H.

Beautiful, A.

Schulte, A.

+ Seifert, Robert (abgedruckter letter WT September 1915 p 144; death notice WT September 1916)

Sommerfeld, W.

Speckmann, O.

Staak, W.

Staehler, A.

Statolte, K.

Steep, Max vd (abgedruckter letter WT September 1915 S. 14th; WT January 1916 WT June 1916 p 97)

Stone, A (lfred)

Stone, M.

Stephan, Otto (abgedruckter letter WT September 1915 p 144)

Stoll, Fri (abgedruckter letter WT March 1916 p 47)

Stroot, G.

Strube, O.

Süchardt, H.

Tilz, Arthur (abgedruckter letter WT June 1917, p 111)

Trenkmann, W.

Uhlig, Albert (abgedruckter letter WT May 1916 p 79)

Injustice, M.

Vogt, K.

Vollrath, H.

Chief, Ewald (abgedruckter letter WT June 1915 pp. 96f.)

Wagner, G.

+ Option (death notice WT November 1916)

Waldburger, Oskar (abgedruckter letter WT September 1915 p.143; WT June 1916 p 97)

Weber, Reinhold (abgedruckter letter WT July 1915 S. 112th)

Example, Arno (abgedruckter letter WT November 1915 p.176; WT August S. 1916 127; WT November 1916 p 175)

White, Charles (abgedruckter letter WT August 1915 p 128)

Weller House, Paul (abgedruckter letter WT March 1916 p 47)

Werth, P.

+ Widlich (death notice WT September 1916)

Winter, H.

Wnendt, M. (abgedruckter letter WT August 1916 p 127)

Wortmann, W.

Wuerth, D.

Zahn, W.

Zaimerland, H.

Zeglatis, G.

M. Zenk, M.

The Bible Students who died serving Germany in World War 1 were listed in the German Watchtower but not in the British or American Watchtower.

*sorry for the length of the list in this post - but I believe that soldiers should be remembered - not made invisible.

87

A question for my friends in the USA about cowboys.

by punkofnice in

as a kid growing up in the uk we used to play 'cowboys and indians' and watch high chaparal and bonanza along with other cowboy films.

later, in the 70's kung fu would be shown with caine going through the 'old west'.

we even had a chocolate bar that was marketed with a 'cowboy' theme...milky bar.. as far as i know the 'wild west' as shown on tvdidn't actually exist.. are there people that believe it did?.

OrphanCrow

Yes, punkofnice, the cowboy is 'real' over here in Canada and the US.

Cowgirls, too. I know real cowgirls - they dress just like the cowboys and they ride range on horses that they raise and break themselves. They rope cows, clean barns, handle horses, and, in their spare time, they barrel race. That is, when they are not having babies and being mamas. And they start young - I have seen little wee girls up on huge horses, putting them through their paces - all dressed up in their cowgirl gear.

Being a cowboy or cowgirl is truly a real way of life for some people where I come from. And for lots, it is more than just being a rodeo rider or chuckwagon driver.

Check out Reba McIntire's facebook page. Her father, who recently passed away, was a cowboy.

https://www.facebook.com/Reba/photos/a.118700645796.133121.14969940796/10152806970310797/?type=1&theater

42

The Kids Corner at Bethel!

by Atlantis in

from a jw site.. .. a nice little corner for the young ones at the central america bethel branch in mexico.. .. .. .

.. .. nevada!.

.

OrphanCrow

I agree, muddywaters.

And another question - why did the parents let Caleb go to the door by himself?

65

Doctors and surgeons say no to blood transfusions

by Mr Negative in

my mum recently told me that even surgeons won't have blood transfusions, but the common people don't get told this.

i have also seen or heard others say that a bunch of doctors/health officials/surgeons were asked, at some point, if they would accept a blood transfusion and they all said no.

is this true?

OrphanCrow

And some more to think about...

Boyd, head of gynecology at the Royal Victoria Hospital in Montreal, has performed more than 500 procedures on Jehovah's Witnesses and can recall only one of his non-Witness patients being transfused in the past 5 years.

500 procedures on JWs. Procedures - how many of these procedures involved hemodilution or cell savers?

My guess - all of them. Contrary to what most JWs believe, bloodless surgery isn't just done with a 'slice open the patient, say some hail marys and hope for the best'. Jw surgeries are planned. Planned to the point of having 'pet' doctors who will operate on them with 'bloodless' methods.

Now. Here is the very, very, critical point when it comes to risk taking - every single one of those JW 500 patients would have had a blood transfusion. Both cell saver and hemodilution procedures involve transfusing blood - the patient's own blood. Every time a cell saver is used, every time a JW has hemodilution, a transfusion occurs - of their own blood.

Dr. Boyd has admitted, that in the same time frame, only one non-JW had to be exposed to the risks of a blood transfusion. ONLY ONE. Compared to 500 JWs who were being hooked up to machines, having their blood diluted, drained out of them, filtered, and then their blood being transfused back into them.

Which group has the greatest risk from 'blood transfusions'?

Which group has the greatest overall risk?

Which group would you rather belong to?

65

Doctors and surgeons say no to blood transfusions

by Mr Negative in

my mum recently told me that even surgeons won't have blood transfusions, but the common people don't get told this.

i have also seen or heard others say that a bunch of doctors/health officials/surgeons were asked, at some point, if they would accept a blood transfusion and they all said no.

is this true?

OrphanCrow

Prologos, it is important to understand that there has been, historically, a very distinct divide in the US between two different approaches to medicine - allopathic and osteopathic.

There are 'allopathic' doctors and there are 'osteopathic' doctors.

So, when you ask the question - " how have doctor's attitudes to accept transfusions for themselves been affected by tainted blood?", it is critical to understand that you will get different responses, depending upon which kindof doctor you are speaking of.

The doctors who follow the allopathic approach to medicine, like the ones that Backformore trained with, and who do use and take blood transfusions - are the doctors who would traditionally be seen as those who founded and belong to the American Medical Association. These are the doctors that the Watchtower Society has had a long standing feud with - the AMA. These doctors understand the need to reduce the use of blood unnecessarily, but they do see blood transfusions as a life saving measure. These also are the doctors who have worked very diligently to make improvements and changes in the blood banking system such that it is now common knowlege that the risks of contracting a disease from transfused blood is very, very low. I doubt very much if an allopathically trained doctor would say no to a blood transfusion for themselves or their family. Reduction of blood transfusions - yes. Elimination of blood transfusions - absolutely not.

It is mostly within the osteopathic field of medicine that you will find bloodlesss surgery methods promoted. It is the osteopathic doctors and surgeons who mostly support, endorse, and use bloodless surgery. And, it will more than likely be from an osteopathically trained doctor that you will hear some of the quotes that the Watchtower tosses around. Because, it is in this field, that of osteopathic medicine, that you will find Jehovah's Witness doctors and surgeons. And, of course, a JW doctor says that they won't take blood.

The history of the clashes and fights and struggles between the American Medical Association and the osteopaths is long, bloody and not pretty. A person can see elements of that struggle played out in old Watchtower literature. It took much fighting before the osteopaths gained recognition as 'real' medical doctors and surgeons and there still exists controversy surrounding the credibilty and ability of ospteopathic doctors in some states. The ospteopaths do have accreditation now, but it was not always so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic_medicine_in_the_United_States

If you read the article I linked to in my last post, about the Watchtower Society's promotion of bloodless medicine programs in Canada (Candian health care is far different than the US and the Canadian public health care system has made it very advantageous for experimental technology to advance...behind the scenes, so to speak...), you will notice that the promotion of bloodless surgery has been done on the basis of cost saving - not health reasons and not about tainted blood. The way the Society has been able to introduce bloodless programs into public health care systems, like Canada and Australia, is by making a case that bloodless programs save money. Hence, the birth of 'blood management'.

When the Society's blood management teams 'sell' their programs to hospitals and to entire countries, they do not concern themselves very much with 'tainted blood' issues - that doesn't sell their bloodless programs - blood management does - the financial benefits of blood management is what drives the bloodless industry - not tainted blood.

Tainted blood, really, is almost a moot point in the current medical use of blood transfusions in North America.

I would be far more concerned about all that could go wrong with cell savers, etc. than I would be about contracting some disease from a blood transfusion. The cell saver and hemodilution procedures come with all the mechanical risks, and more, of an allogenic blood transfusion - the only thing that bloodless surgery procedures are able to afford protection from is disease - every other risk associated with blood transfusions exist with 'bloodless' methods.