And RCat, too. Where y'at, Rcat? ... with Seven?
Posts by AhHah
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15Seven ?
by Simon inhas anyone heard from seven?.
i've noticed she hasn't posted for a while.. let us know you're ok !
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8
Few deep thoughts or feelings
by TR init seems that most on this forum are deep thinkers.
there is much agonizing over the experiences each one has had.
there was trauma, crisis' of conscience, terrible things seen and done.
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AhHah
Carmel,
Very astute observations.
Why do you think that ex-JW's tend to stay stuck in a self-centered development mode? Is it mainly the residual fear that comes from attempting to break free from a cult that had "all the answers" and which even promised that faithful members would not even die?
What is the key understanding(s) that will allow ex-JW's to once again embrace life and love, to become self-actualizing?
I haven't read any Maslow, but it sounds interesting. For insights on this thread, which of his books would you recommend? "Toward a Psychology of Being"? "Religions, Values, and Peak Experiences"?
My interest was piqued by the following review:
Abraham Maslow doesn't pretend to have easy answers, absolutes, or solutions that bring the relief of finality—but he does have a deep belief in people. In this Third Edition of Toward a Psychology of Being (the original edition sold well over 100,000 copies), there is a constant optimistic thrust toward a future based on the intrinsic values of humanity. Professor Maslow states that, "This inner nature, as much as we know of it so far, seems not to be intrinsically evil, but rather either neutral or positively 'good.' What we call evil behavior appears most often to be a secondary reaction to frustration of this intrinsic nature." He demonstrates that human beings can be loving, noble, and creative, and are capable of pursuing the highest values and aspirations.
Edited by - AhHAh on 15 November 2000 1:14:51
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23
Witnet Admin Resigns
by Pathofthorns inmy hats off to the witnet administration team.
it is very sad to see them go, as the last few months have been quite interesting.
of course, those who follow the board know that in recent weeks there have been quite a few problems surfacing.. its obvious many of these individuals had concerns much like we have here.
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AhHah
Rebel without applause -- I think I saw that movie.
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8
Few deep thoughts or feelings
by TR init seems that most on this forum are deep thinkers.
there is much agonizing over the experiences each one has had.
there was trauma, crisis' of conscience, terrible things seen and done.
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AhHah
Tom,
You seem to have a very healthy sense of yourself and a clear identity outside of the JW group-think. You seem very normal. I seem to remember that you joined as an adult. I believe that those of us who were raised in the religion do not tend to escape as easily as you have. We had no identity that we could separate from our JW identity. We have to learn this upon leaving. It is not easy. If anything, we are not selfish (self-nuturing) enough. We actually have to learn that it is OK for us to be happy if we are not busy on the JW "works" treadmill.
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92
Reflections
by Frenchy inim starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.
i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.
on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).
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AhHah
Circare,
I am not intending to be negative, I guess I just haven't discovered any causes that engender a lasting passion yet.
I can relate to that. I often feel "stuck". I sometimes think that this may be due to the ingrained JW indoctrination that no other endeavor in the entire universe could possibly ever compare to the holy grail of all human activities -- saving/condemning souls by preaching the Gospel. I exaggerate to make the point. But, subconsiously, I believe that we are programmed to reject and feel guilty about all other activities.
I must often remind myself of a few things: Small steps at first. What is important is to keep putting one foot in front of the other, even when we are not motivated to do so -- and leading our childen by example. The joy that comes from positive activity increases the desire and the motivation. Each day, in fact our entire life, is nothing more than a series of relatively small events and activities that all together define us and give us meaning and purpose. Few of us get to make contributions that change the world. However, we all get to make contributions to the lives that we touch. Fortunately, those are where true happiness and fulfillment are found. Each loving smile, each small but unexpected act of kindness, each time we let others, especially our children, know how much we love and appreciate having them in our lives -- all of these are what our children will treasure long after we are gone and is the greatest gift that we can give them. Yet, each little event in itself is not what what will be remembered. The sum is what is important. We must reduce our grand expectations and be willing to live in the moment, in what opportunity each day offers.
Edited by - AhHAh on 13 November 2000 2:28:41
Edited by - AhHAh on 13 November 2000 3:4:6
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15
Just want to get past it........
by notsureofmyself ini appreciate so much of what is being said here, but frankly i just want it done with.
i don't even care if their doctrines are right or not, their conduct, their conditional love and their hypocrisy is definitely wrong.. i have given up looking for a church that has the answers, there is none.
there are no perfect churches, doctrines or people.
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AhHah
NotSure,
I have been thinking more about what you said at the end of your post.
Sometimes I wonder if it will ever be possible to have some kind of relationship with God again. Sometimes it seems that you have to drop God also to be free. Faith in God is all part of the Witness thing that I abhor. I am really not sure about this whole thing.
Red's description of you reminded me of myself. We are probably very similar. Devout persons suffer that much more when they leave, because more of themselves has been sacrificed. What follows is only my personal opinion - for what it may be worth.
I believe that your intuition is correct. I believe that it is important to the process of recovery to allow oneself the freedom to make a completely fresh exploration of God outside of the narrow constraints that were forced upon us. Feel free to read other religious writings, even non-Biblical ones. You won't be harmed by doing so, you will be better informed and liberated by the possibilities. You will likely gain a new respect for the faith of those whom you previously were forced to condemn.
There are many differing concepts of God in the world. None of them can be proven to be true or false. All require faith. Most religions at least hold out a better reward for believers, if not destruction of the unbelievers, which discredits them and their motives. IMO, it is highly unlikely that any human religious writings (including the Bible) have completely revealed the true nature of God or the will of God. It is possible that they all contain some valid insights, however.
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At first, after leaving the JW org, I was not able to read the Bible without mentally filtering every verse I read through the WT interpretations -- it is almost unconscious. I have found that, after considering other Christian and non-Christian doctrines, that I am finally able to read the Bible without as much prejudice. A big adjustment for me, however, has been the realization that the Bible cannot be proven to be the only valid understanding of God. In that context, however, I find that I have a more realistic appreciation of the Bible's value (and limitations). I am no longer upset by the contradictory concepts that the Bible books paint of God, or the doctrines that seem to lack the love and reasonableness of a secure and loving Creator. While this does mean that I have less faith as as result, it also means that I am not as conflicted by doctrines that no longer ring true (for example: that God murdered most humans in a flood and in the future he will murder all non-Christians). Overall, I feel much happier. True wisdom requires that one humbly acknowledge the limitations of one's understanding, which I find liberating.-
We have been taught to believe that we are condemned by God if we dare to leave "his organization". The more we read and explore other beliefs, the more we are freed from this mental slavery and feelings of worthlessness. You may eventually embrace a very different concept of God than what you were taught. You may even decide that it is not possible to know the essence or mind of God, and yet feel confident that this knowledge somehow still seems assured. This is your privilege. Enjoy your freedom. Release the guilt. Visualize it ebbing away from you like the tide, while you enjoy exploring the seashore, with all the wonderment and curiosity of a young child.
Edited by - AhHAh on 13 November 2000 1:40:34
Edited by - AhHAh on 13 November 2000 1:46:23
Edited by - AhHAh on 13 November 2000 12:57:22
Edited by - AhHAh on 13 November 2000 13:3:43
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6
Df-ing dilemmas
by Pathofthorns ini have often wondered if the society would ever actively seek out ones who were disfellowshipped for a past policy that was reversed.
obviously the line probably is the individual wasn't submissive, or was "running ahead of the slave" so it doesn't matter.. but if a teaching is reversed, it clearly is an admission that the prior one was a "command of men" not one of god.
to have disfellowshipped someone over something beyond what is stated in scripture appears to be clearly wrong, and would seem to carry a heavy responsibility upon those who basically handed a god-fearing person over to satan.. i find it particularly disturbing in matters such as organ transplants and certain blood fractions, where individual's only choices were disfellowshipping or death.
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AhHah
Path,
This has often troubled me also.
As far as I know, the only way back into an approved standing once a disfellowshipment is official (any appeals have been exercised or forfeiteted) is the long, hard way -- grovel and beg for mercy, and go to meetings regularly for months or years without being able to speak to anyone. It doesn't matter why you were DF'd -- right or wrong. And don't look for any publicly announced retractions due to faulty doctrine. It was "current light from God" at the time you were DF'd, so deal with it. Where is the love? The humility?
I never could reconcile the whole procedure for reinstatement in any event. It always seemed harsh, unloving, unmerciful, arbitrary and non-biblical to me. Of course, now I understand that it is all about power and control and fear and guilt -- it is definitely NOT about love. Just thinking about it now gives me the creeps.
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15
Just want to get past it........
by notsureofmyself ini appreciate so much of what is being said here, but frankly i just want it done with.
i don't even care if their doctrines are right or not, their conduct, their conditional love and their hypocrisy is definitely wrong.. i have given up looking for a church that has the answers, there is none.
there are no perfect churches, doctrines or people.
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AhHah
Notsure,
That was a beautiful and honest post that captures how difficult it is for so many of us to attempt to lose our JW shackles. Please do not feel alone in this process. You will successfully move past all of the emotions over time. I have found what Waiting described to be true for me -- the issues resurface time and again, but each time I gain more ground and a healthier perspective.
I agree that one does not have to be a Bible scholar to recognize the JW org for what it is. However, the key that enabled me to feel free to move on with my life without guilt was knowledge. Most of my initial knowledge of the facts about the JWs came from reading and studying Ray Franz's books for many months, until I was convinced that God and the Bible do not obligate me to that organization. Of course, I still had deep sadness, depression, and anger. I felt that I had been robbed of so much opportunity and personal fulfillment in my life by that org.
I was angry over deliberate deceit and callous disregard for the very lives of the members worldwide. The GB were more than happy to have JWs be incarcerated and die all over the world to protect their reputations as God's channel. GB votes that affected the lives of JWs were dismissed without a second thought if a decision did not receive a majority vote. I was so angry that I ranted and raved in the middle of the night as I read one shocking account after another.
Eventually, acceptance settles in and one desires to move on with life. I hope that reading some of this helps validate what you are feeling and encourages you to feel good about finding personal happiness on your own terms.
Edited by - AhHAh on 13 November 2000 12:21:51
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92
Reflections
by Frenchy inim starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.
i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.
on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).
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AhHah
Circare,
I also have a daughter from a prior marriage whom I rasied as a JW. She is married now and has recently become very devout. She has no desire to speak with me, especially now that she knows that I am "inactive". Unfortunately, I now have no more opportunity to help her.
If she were still young and in my care, I would attempt to help her to see the value and beauty of Christian morality, but outside of the confines and small-mindedness of the JW org and other religious organizations. I would not hesitate to read and discuss the Bible with her with that in mind. I would try to help her to understand that one can have a sense of God in one's heart. I would try to teach her and demonstrate by example how rewarding it can be to reach out to others and offer friendship and support and loving-kindness where ever opportunities arise in life -- with neighbors, school and work associates, and even charitable activities. This way of life is a reward in itself, and does not require a formal religious organization to be taught and understood. Children learn primarily by example. Often words are not even necessary. Many children even seem naturally inclined to be the loving persons that we desire them to be. Often, they only need encouragement and good examples.
Here is more of my philosophy on parenting, for what it is worth. Children always need to feel that they can tell you anything they are feeling, knowing that you will not reject them or scorn them when they disagree with you. They need to know that they will first be heard before you speak and that they will always be loved unconditionally. Teenagers especially need to be able to test you with words that they think will displease you, as they seek to think for themselves and become independent. Your patient and loving attitude when they challenge you (along with enforced but reasonable boundaries) will often be what is most important. Of course, each child is different as must be responded to with respect for them as an individual.
We can continue to give our children all that is positive about the JW experience with none of the negatives. We can assist them to develop a healthy sense of themselves that is not dependent on the validation of an organization. We can allow them to properly focus much of their energy on their own personal development and education without any of the guilt that we had being raised as a JW. We can assist them to broaden their horizons and reach for their own dreams.
Edited by - AhHAh on 12 November 2000 21:27:15
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Reflections
by Frenchy inim starting a new thread because its time i left the bergman discussion.
i would like to address some comments made by ahhah, however, comments which have given me reason to look deep into myself.. even then, i wonder how objective a person could ever be after having had part of their life taken from them by a cult association.
on the other hand, who else (other than an ex-jw) would ever care enough to work as tirelessly as he seems to have in attempting to document the potential harm of this religion (biased as it may be).
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AhHah
Frenchy,
I have gathered a few of your quotes from this thread and pasted them below:
Whatever can be said about the WTS one will have to admit that it is unlike anything else he has experienced. Do they have ‘the truth’ and have just mismanaged it? Why were the promises so real to us? Why do some of us still long for those things once hoped for? Is there someone else out there that has the truth? Will there ever be?
For me, personally, I am angrier with myself than I am at them.
The ambivalence you sense should be quite blatant I would think. There is much mixed emotion about this whole business.
Even though I feel there are strong arguements somehow collectively they fall short of offering 'good news'. Sure they pick the WTS to pieces but in the end your left with an empty bag. Basically you end up with no faith, no religion, no god, no good news for a better existence. - Martini -- Exactly. This line of reasoning has resulted in many who once prayed fervently to God to now reject him entirely. It has resulted in those that once accepted the teachings of Jesus and strove to live good, decent lives to abandon it all. I cannot see how this is better than what they had before. There has to be a better way. How long must one beat a dead horse?
Criticisms against the WTS in the form of what some of its elders and R&F do can hardly be used to discredit its claims. I think it important for us to understand this.
Your specific comments above do NOT seem to have been offered in the context of "What If". They seem to be reflective of genuine, personal questions about the WT society doctrines and their standing with God. Am I correct?
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Also, I am still wondering whether or not you have read Ray Franz's books -- because he does such an excellent job of addressing the answers to your questions and in much more exhaustive detail than would be practical on this forum.Edited by - AhHah on 12 November 2000 14:37:18
Edited by - AhHah on 12 November 2000 14:54:44