Posts by AlanF

i'm talking about the new posters, like kitten whiskers, who started posting today (hope this works: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/120817/1.ashx).

and it seems like we're getting a few like this nearly every day.

people who were raised jws, really worry that they are doing the right thing in leaving, yet who have been made to feel not good enough by the wts, who felt they never measured up, who struggled with it, but came to realize that what they'd been brought up to believe was just not the truth.. the same stories are told over and over again, and they come from sincere, good people - not whiny, fault-finding apostates like the rest of us riffraff around here!

AlanF

Zarco said:

: The point from Luke 21:8 is well taken.

It's not just well taken -- it's definitive.

Just suppose you were a Christian but not a JW and you knew exactly what Luke 21:8 says. Suppose some supposed Christian came along and told you, "Hey! I know the year when the end is coming, because I've carefully examined the Bible and God is using me to tell this to the world." Isn't it beyond obvious that you'd peg this guy as a nutjob? And as one who clearly violates the spirit, not only of Luke 21:8, but of Matthew 24:36 ("Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father"), Matthew 24:42-44 ("Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know one thing, that if the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. On this account you too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming"), and Mark 13:32-37 ("Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father. Keep looking, keep awake, for you do not know when the appointed time is. It is like a man traveling abroad that left his house and gave the authority to his slaves, to each one his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to keep on the watch. Therefore keep on the watch, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether late in the day or at midnight or at cockcrowing or early in the morning; in order that when he arrives suddenly, he does not find you sleeping. But what I say to you I say to all, Keep on the watch.")? If you'd peg this guy as a nutjob, then why not the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, and all those who knowingly support it, given that these men have violated the spirit of these scriptures since before the founding of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania?

Now just suppose that you come to a point where Jesus confronts you and says, "Hey, Zarco. How come you ignored what I said in Luke 21:8?" How would you answer? Do you really think that Jesus would accept excuses? By "excuses" I mean all of the usual bullpucky that a lot of JW apologists might spew forth today, but that you and I know is just bullpucky. I can see that you're honest enough to see what I'm getting at.

I know that I'm being hard on you here, but it's not just on you. I'm being hard on all those who claim to put faith in the Bible and Jesus Christ, yet violate extremely clear proscriptions on what they should proclaim about the time of "the end".

: It is probably one of the most embarrasing scriptures given the organizations history of predicting the end date several times. I have not studied the scripture in depth - I will.

Good. But don't rely on WTS publications, because the only thing you're going find of substance will be what I mentioned to you about some comments in a 1964 Watchtower. Why do you think the Society has avoided commenting on this scripture? I'm convinced that it's because every one of their writers who has carefully considered it immediately figures out that it's not a subject they want to tackle, since the words are clearly condemnatory of Watchtower practice for some 130 years.

: Another poster uses the phase "cognitive dissonance" - it seems to apply to me.

I agree. Perhaps a clearer term would be, "Knowing how to do what is right but not doing it because of other considerations." I'm fully aware how painful this can be, because I was in this situation for many years. Over a period of time, you gradually become more and more aware that you can't stand the crap, the lies, the subterfuge, the pretending.

: The conflict of thoughts / actions is ongoing but the tension is not unbearable.

Much like that elder I mentioned earlier. Some years ago, I respected this elder because of his desire to help other JWs. While I still understand this, I've come to realize that in the long run, it probably would have been better for him to have quit the JWs (for the 2nd time) and not given in to his wife's emotional blackmail (which worked 35 years ago) for the 2nd time, but quit, and clearly stated to other JWs the reason he was quitting.

You must realize that the Governing Body, in its almost infinite hubris, listens to very little but the statistics on how the JW organization is doing in terms of numbers. If the numbers appear to be going up a bit, then that's proof of God's blessing. If the numbers go down, it's the opposite, and only then do these charlatans act.

: The tension is lessened by doing what I can within the confines of the Org.

The elder I mentioned sometimes said the same thing, that he was interested in keeping "the wolves" at bay. He was proud, like you, that he not once participated in a disfellowshipping.

: Even though I was raised in the truth, I have mentally fought the teaching that the end is just around the corner by making most all of my decisions based on the long range view, in other words that I am going to live for 70 or 80 years so I better plan for it. When I talk to others about decision making I encourage them to do the same.

Very good!

: I suspect that someday I will resolve the tention by refusing to believe the WT teaching that the end is near, but I am not there yet.

Why not? All the evidence is there for the grasping.

: To all the posters new and old - I have been afraid to ever post here and it took months of lurking and a timely subject by S4

Join the great crowd.

: - but the responses to this topic have been stimulating. We are all biased but to hear different views and fears/doubts clearly explained is a treasure. This interchange is exactly what should take place inside any healthy relationship. Really happy that I joined and posted.

Precisely what most of us ex-JW critics want practicing JWs to realize! The fact that such interchanges are impossible within the JW organization (except by clandestine means) is proof that this organization has nothing to do with God. See my above post to confusa for a few quotations that prove my point.

AlanF

356

Say You're a Bethelite & Monitoring JWD - How Would You Feel About THESE??

by Seeker4 in

jw
friends

i'm talking about the new posters, like kitten whiskers, who started posting today (hope this works: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/120817/1.ashx).

and it seems like we're getting a few like this nearly every day.

people who were raised jws, really worry that they are doing the right thing in leaving, yet who have been made to feel not good enough by the wts, who felt they never measured up, who struggled with it, but came to realize that what they'd been brought up to believe was just not the truth.. the same stories are told over and over again, and they come from sincere, good people - not whiny, fault-finding apostates like the rest of us riffraff around here!

AlanF

confusa:

You've done nothing wrong, and everything right, by questioning and doubting the JW organization. You already know that to be as dumb as an ass is not the way to go. Even the Society knows very well that what you're doing is right and proper. Here is some food for thought:

I'm sure you'll agree that a reasonable God would want his intelligent creatures to exercise the thinking abilities he gave them. Sometimes the Society gives lip service to this, especially when it suits a particular argument they want to advance. From the April 1, 1988, Watchtower, page 30:

Jehovah does not expect us to show blind credulity. He does not want from us the kind of obedience that a trainer gets from a beast with a bridle or a whip. That is why he told David: "Do not make yourselves like a horse or mule without understanding, whose spiritedness is to be curbed even by bridle or halter." (Psalm 32:9) Rather, Jehovah has endowed us with thinking ability and discernment so that, based on understanding, we can choose to obey him.
In Japanese, the word kiku (to hear) includes the meaning not only of listening and obeying but also of judging whether a thing is good or bad. When someone speaks to us, it is good to listen in this sense so that when obeying, we do so not by mere credulity but by choice.

But notice the contrast between what is said and what is really expected. Although it makes statements such as the above, the Society really wants people to practice what was stated by the religious philosopher St. Anselm (1033-1109):

I must believe in order that I may understand.

The approach stated by another religious philosopher, Peter Abelard (1079-1142), is more in line with Psalm 32:9:

I must understand in order that I may believe.

By doubting we come to questioning and by questioning we may perceive the truth. The Truth book, on page 13, applied this to religion:

We need to examine, not only what we personally believe, but also what is taught by any religious organization with which we may be associated. Are its teachings in full harmony with God's Word, or are they based on the traditions of men? If we are lovers of the truth, there is nothing to fear from such an examination. It should be the sincere desire of every one of us to learn what God's will is for us, and then to do it.

If one believes these words, one should not fear to examine ideas that may conflict with what the Society says on any matter. A red flag should go up when one hears words like these:

When we talk about law, we talk about organization. With all our hearts we need to search after that law. Jehovah doesn't give individuals interpretation (of the scriptures). We need a guide, and that is the `faithful and discreet slave'. We should not be getting together in a clique to discuss views contrary to the `faithful and discreet slave'. We must recognize the source of our instruction. We must be like an ass, be humble, and stay in the manger; and we won't get any poison. [Governing Body member Lloyd Barry, May 29, 1980, in addressing the elders of the Bethel family]
If you have a tendency towards `apostasy', get a hobby and keep yourself busy to keep your mind off of it. Stay away from deep Bible study to determine meanings of the scriptures. [Governing Body member Karl Klein, April 30, 1980, in addressing the Bethel family]

Do these words not directly contradict Jehovah's thoughts expressed in Psalm 32:9? Do they not contradict the spirit of Jehovah, who says to search in his Word to acquire understanding? When there is a conflict, who should one listen to -- Jehovah or the Governing Body? As Joshua said, "As for me and my household, we shall serve Jehovah."

No one should want to be included among those described by the philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre as ones who, "since they are afraid of reasoning.... want to adopt a mode of life in which reasoning and research play but a subordinate role, in which one never seeks but that which one has already found."

Karl Klein said to "stay away from deep Bible study to determine meanings of the scriptures." This brings to mind a quotation from Orwell's novel Nineteen Eighty-Four:

He is too intelligent. He sees too clearly and speaks too plainly. The Party does not like such people.

Similarly, "Jehovah's organization" does not like people who think too clearly and speak too plainly.

: I wonder alot of times if this is a test.

The only test is what you yourself impose.

: That we are living in the last days, and the bible does states that many will fall.

The Bible is very clear that "the last days" began a few years after Jesus' death. Read some accounts of Peter's words, such as in Acts and 1 & 2 Peter. What that means for our day, some 2000 years later, is anyone's guess.

: I sometimes think I'm probably one of the fallen ones.

A common trap for someone in your position. Been there, done that. "This too shall pass."

: Sometimes I think that there is no excuse for me leaving, that I should know that the organization is imperfect and should have faith and be humble.

Like Karl Klein said? Be an ass and stay in the manger? You already know you can't do that.

AlanF

42

Firpo Carr's Homepage

by slimboyfat in

jw
friends

anyone notice this before?.

http://www.stirinc.org/.

for those who don't know - who is firpo carr?.

AlanF

slimboyfat said:

: For those who don't know - who is Firpo Carr?

You yourself said it best:

: He is a Witness apologist-cum-self-publicist of the first order.

Carr has been promoting himself for many years. He's obviously very intelligent, but also very self-serving. I spoke to his grandmother a few years ago, to gain information, and she was very coy. Pretty much admitted everything I set forth to her, but was not forthcoming with new information.

Carr is on his fourth marriage and has one daughter, I believe (could be wrong; it's been years since I've thought about Carr). All wives have been JWs. No one seems to know how he's managed to keep himself in good standing, except by observing that when he goes to a new area, he manages to flim-flam the locals so extensively that when they finally figure out the sort of charlatan they're up against, they throw in the towel and do what they can to get him to move on. Apparently Carr has managed to get a number of local elders involved in a variety of questionable schemes, so that they can't expose Carr without shooting themselves in the foot. And he's a good deal smarter than most, so he keeps a couple of steps ahead of most elders.

: He has many interests and has written on subjects as diverse as racist words in the dictionary; why the divine name should be in the NT; a history of Jehovah's Witnesses from a black perspective; homosexuality; and the "black Holocaust" in Nazi Germany.

Yes, and these books are, for the most part, at best naive, and at worst self-serving propaganda designed mainly to promote Carr as a JW apologist.

: I like to think he is the Witness apologist equivalent to Jerry Bergman on the apostate scene, in that his books are largely self-published on a wide range of topics about which he has a lot of enthusiasm

That's where the comparison ends.

: but not a lot of expertise.

LOL! Bergman has his faults and has written some criticisms of JWs that I disagree with, but Carr is in a class by himself in lack of expertise.

: On second thoughts that is not fair: he is a better writer than Bergman,

I think not. You want examples from Carr's books?

: and has some more perceptive insights to offer too.

He certainly has some of those, especially in his JW Blacks from an American Perspective. Too lazy to look up the title; it might be a little off.

: He tends to keep his distance from other Witness apologists such as Flemings, Herle, Foster and so on.

It's the other way round. They keep their distance from him, because they know what he is.

: I don't think he attended the Witness apologist forum, for instance. He is more of a one man band, who is not without criticism of certain Witness policies toward blacks. He is not pleased that the Watchtower used the word "niggerly" for instance, and thinks that frowning on beards is especially stupid from a black person's perspective.

One of Carr's better observations.

: One interesting controversy he provoked was with Randy at freeminds over the issue of whether William Jackson, who was a member of the governing body, was black. Randy claims that photos clearly show he was white as a sheet.

Jackson was definitely white. Carr is wrong, and has no idea what he's talking about.

: Edgar Foster, one of the more astute and considerate in the Witness "apologist" camp (if one can so label him)

I agree. Foster is among the few JW apologists who carefully steers away from the stupider of JW doctrines, and always maintains an even keel. This has been true in the 13 years since I met him online. I have a good deal of respect for Foster (and Herle), as opposed to morons like Flemings, Couture, Kidd, etc.

: wrote a very flattering review of Carr's latest book on blacks and Jehovah's Witnesses.

Foster is liable to get himself in trouble with JW central.

: Foster is himself black and recently had published a scholarly monograph on Tertullian's Christology.

Interesting.

AlanF

37

JW-apologists - and who survives Armageddon?

by Hellrider in

lately i`ve been in conflict with jw-apologists on wikipedia in my country.

the most annoying thing is when the jws are trying to rewrite doctrine to make it sound more humane than it really is.

everyone on this board, everyone who ever was a jw or were raised as a jw,knows what the real doctrine is on this issue.

AlanF

The following two quotations might be of help, Hellrider:

w89 9/1 19 Remaining Organized for Survival Into the Millennium
Only Jehovah?s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the ?great crowd,? as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.

km 4/97 3 Directing Students to the Organization Behind Our Name
5 Shoulder the Responsibility: Every disciple maker must realize that it is his responsibility to direct the Bible student to God?s organization. (1 Tim. 4:16) Each study session should be viewed as a stepping-stone toward the happy day when the new one will symbolize his dedication to Jehovah by water baptism. One of the questions that he will be asked during the baptism ceremony is: ?Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah?s Witnesses in association with God?s spirit-directed organization?? Hence, it is important that he realize he cannot serve God without actively associating with the true Christian congregation.?Matt. 24:45-47; John 6:68; 2 Cor. 5:20.

AlanF

356

Say You're a Bethelite & Monitoring JWD - How Would You Feel About THESE??

by Seeker4 in

jw
friends

i'm talking about the new posters, like kitten whiskers, who started posting today (hope this works: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/120817/1.ashx).

and it seems like we're getting a few like this nearly every day.

people who were raised jws, really worry that they are doing the right thing in leaving, yet who have been made to feel not good enough by the wts, who felt they never measured up, who struggled with it, but came to realize that what they'd been brought up to believe was just not the truth.. the same stories are told over and over again, and they come from sincere, good people - not whiny, fault-finding apostates like the rest of us riffraff around here!

AlanF

Doubting Bro said:

: AlanF, for me, cognitive dissonance is the only answer that I can come up with. I'm so disappointed in myself that I fell so hard for "the truth" and I'm even more disappointed that I've been avoiding having to face it. Although, somewhat in my defense, I was raised in so we're talking about a lifetime of exposure. Still, I go and tell others to take an honest look at their religion, yet have refused to do so myself. I just hope I haven't hurt anyone along the way in my capacity as an elder by either what I said or what I should have said but didn't.

I'm totally with you, Bro! Although I left the JWs in spirit nearly 40 years ago, shortly after getting baptized, I went back and forth for all the wrong reasons. I nearly left at about age 20, but family pressure (being threatened with being put out on the street with no job skills) brought me back in again for awhile. When I went to college at age 27, for all practical purposes I quit again, but after college went back again for a year and a half due to family pressure (this time from a braindead JW wife). After that, I drifted in a sort of limbo for another seven years, until I finally bit the bullet and told myself that I was finally going to put this baby to rest. I was completely unprepared for what I found. I found that the Society had told lies about almost everything it has ever taught. In some cases these were inadvertant lies, in the same sense that the Society calls a number of religious beliefs on the part of "Christendom" "lies" even though a lot of Christians sincerely hold these beliefs. This proved that JWs were no better than anyone else. But in other cases these were deliberate lies, in the sense that a WTS writer would have had to work hard to formulate his language in such a way as to mislead his readers while telling himself that, even though his readers were being misled, what he wrote wasn't quite a lie in the sense that, if a reader had full knowledge of the writer's motivations he would see what the writer really had in mind. This is kind of like answering the phone and saying, "My wife isn't in", knowing full well that your wife is standing just outside the front door. And in a few cases, the Society told flat-out, deliberate lies. This can be proved by showing that the writer had full knowledge that what he wrote was false. This latter thing -- demonstrably deliberate lying -- proved to me that the Society's leaders and writers really do know that a good deal of what they set forth as "food from Jehovah's table" is completely rotten. But like the Pharisees, they won't budge, because if they do, they'll lose a great deal of personal comfort and investment. So better to keep the status quo until they die. Of course, a few people in charge, like the completely insane Ted Jaracz, are completely sincere in their belief that they're doing God's will, yet do all manner of criminal things. So really, with Jaracz as the most powerful GB member, the Society is not all that different from the Branch Davidians, except in size.

AlanF

117

"That I may make a reply to him that is taunting me"

by under_believer in

jw
friends

so for our "congregation book study", we are still deeply mired in the bible teach book.

this week's lesson talks about the whole idea that the book of job relates the central issue of the entire cosmos, a vital issue raised by satan, where satan questions whether humans follow god because of what they are given, or because he deserves it.

i'm surprised that the book of job, obviously archetypal and figurative (for example, i doubt people back then literally spoke for hours in hebrew verse, and i doubt that four messengers showed up all in a row with stories telling that they, only they, got away to tell of a disaster) even has a place in the canon; aside from its lack of any specific historical position or accuracy, the argument it advances (especially as the society interprets it) is facile: the idea that privileged, wealthy, powerful job somehow stands as a representative for all humanity and serves as a litmus test for man's interaction with god is downright silly.

AlanF

The issue of whether mankind can keep integrity to God is a huge strawman that the Watchtower Society loves to invoke. It claims that the issue had to be proved to angels by actually allowing Satan to test mankind in various ways, and that a good way of doing this was to allow Satan to test Job. That this is a ridiculous claim can be shown in several ways:

(1) If God fully knows how humans are built and all of man's parts "are down in writing", then mankind's ability to keep integrity is part of the "design specification". Since the Bible states that some angels in Noah's day sinned by creating fully human bodies for themselves, it follows that these angels fully know the "design spec". Therefore, if any such supernatural beings raised a question about mankind's abilities, God would simply have to tell them, "Read the design spec", and the issue would be settled. In particular, a claim that no man can keep integrity to God would be easy to verify. So would a claim that a specific man could not keep integrity.

(2) Mankind is comprised of a large number of individuals with all manner of proclivities. Some are going to do bad things no matter what. Some are going to do good things no matter what. Some will go either way depending on any number of factors. Therefore, testing a single man -- Job -- gives information only about Job, not about anyone else.

(3) The notion of testing at the hands of Satan is unfair. Satan is said to be a supernatural being with power to control natural forces, and intelligense far beyond what humans possess. To allow such a being to test any human is obviously unfair. To allow such a being to kill dozens of innocent people in an attempt to win a bet with God is extremely unfair on the part of God. Are humans mere pawns in a cosmic chess game? Were Job's children and others completely expendable and mere objects of sport? Does it make sense that Job would be ok with God allowing his children to be killed in this sport and then 'replaced' with other children, as if children were replaceable possessions? Of course not. That's why the Job myth is obviously the product of an ancient patriarchal culture in which wives and children were mere property. In such a culture it makes a certain amount of sense.

AlanF

356

Say You're a Bethelite & Monitoring JWD - How Would You Feel About THESE??

by Seeker4 in

jw
friends

i'm talking about the new posters, like kitten whiskers, who started posting today (hope this works: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/120817/1.ashx).

and it seems like we're getting a few like this nearly every day.

people who were raised jws, really worry that they are doing the right thing in leaving, yet who have been made to feel not good enough by the wts, who felt they never measured up, who struggled with it, but came to realize that what they'd been brought up to believe was just not the truth.. the same stories are told over and over again, and they come from sincere, good people - not whiny, fault-finding apostates like the rest of us riffraff around here!

AlanF

Again, Zarco, I understand your motivations in wanting to help others. I know one elder who has been doing this for some 35 years. Of course, despite even his friendship with various WTS officials, nothing has changed.

I have not seen a clear answer from you on this: In view of Luke 21:8 (avoid those who say 'the time is at hand') how do you justify in your own mind disobeying Jesus' words? This other elder I mentioned gets around it by admitting that he doesn't believe 80% of what JWs teach. Same with a good deal of supposed Bible teachings. How do you do it?

AlanF

356

Say You're a Bethelite & Monitoring JWD - How Would You Feel About THESE??

by Seeker4 in

jw
friends

i'm talking about the new posters, like kitten whiskers, who started posting today (hope this works: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/120817/1.ashx).

and it seems like we're getting a few like this nearly every day.

people who were raised jws, really worry that they are doing the right thing in leaving, yet who have been made to feel not good enough by the wts, who felt they never measured up, who struggled with it, but came to realize that what they'd been brought up to believe was just not the truth.. the same stories are told over and over again, and they come from sincere, good people - not whiny, fault-finding apostates like the rest of us riffraff around here!

AlanF

dozy replied to AuldSoul with the following:

:: If a large, successful, and intensive preaching campaign is what proves God's spirit is with a religion, the Evangelicals have it nailed down tightly. They are everywhere JWs are, and well beyond.

: Are they? Other than their bizarre TV evangelising efforts filled with demands for money and wild emotional sing-songs and appeals which immediately put off any right minded person ,

You don't seem to realize it, but you're doing exactly the same thing that the Governing Body does, and influences the JW community to do, when they lump all non-JWs into the "Christendom" category, and then judge the entire body of Christians by the behavior of a few. All this means is that you, like most JWs, are judging without knowing what you're talking about. Evangelicals are a diverse group and use all manner of preaching methods. Some are certainly the wild-eyed, drooling-at-the-mouth types you describe. Others are far more low key, and are actually quite pleasant to deal with.

What? Pleasant Evangelicals you say? How can that be? I wondered this, given my background of having been raised a JW and imbued with all the prejudices and false views that implies, until I actually spent some time with some of them. These low key Evangelicals might not go door to door as JWs and Mormons and a few other groups do, but they're fully committed to their own methods of preaching, and their large increase in many countries proves that these methods work. The door to door work (the Bible does not actually command this style of preaching; cf. Ray Franz's books, which show that the NWT rendering "door to door" is almost certainly a mistranslation, and certainly nothing to pin a major policy on) is actually quite ineffective, while the more personal, one-on-one methods that low key Evangelicals use are very effective.

When Russia opened up in the 1990s after the fall of the Soviet Union, a great many Christian groups went in and did their versions of missionary work. Most experienced increases at least as great as the JWs did, which proves that their preaching methods work quite well. The Pentecostal movement was founded a bit before 1900, and since then they've increased worldwide to between 250 and 300 million. Whatever they do, and despite the extreme goofiness of some of their teachings, they're obviously a lot more effective than JWs are.

: I've never , ever , ever had any contact whatsoever by them (other than when I call on them in the ministry). And I live in an area popular with evangelicals who regularly establish new churches when they fall out with each other. There is a man who shouts at hapless passerbys in the street occasionally , before the police move him on. Does that count as "an intensive preaching campaign?"

Whatever. The obvious increase in membership that Evangelicals and other Christian groups generate speaks for itself.

:: Even the Mormons outdo JWs. By a lot. "But," JWs respond, "they teach things that aren't true, though!"

: In fairness , the Mormons have some fairly bizarre beliefs and would admit that they have relegated the bible to second place behind the book of Mormon (which is demonstrably false) - it contains large swathes of the book of Isaiah from the KJV including translation errors despite supposedly being written hundreds of years previously.

True, but you've merely illustrated AuldSoul's comments.

: The preaching is limited to young evangelists on a 2 year tour of duty - the average r & f Mormon doesn't preach or even have much knowledge of their beliefs.

The average JW preaches because and only because it's demanded at an organizational level, just as is the case with Mormons. And the average JW demonstrably doesn't have much knowledge of his beliefs. This is easy to prove: just ask an average JW to explain the claimed historical and biblical basis for a fundamental doctrine like the 607 chronology.

:: If a successful worldwide preaching work IS THE MARK, then JWs are beat out by several other religions.

: Such as?

Pentecostals.

:: If accurately teaching the Bible is the mark, then JWs are no better than any other and worse than some.

: I'll agree that they are no better than some other chuches. Accuracy is difficult to establish.

But inaccuracy is not. The 607 chronology is a good example. So is grossly violating the spirit of passages like Luke 21:8 ("Don't predict when the end is coming"). People give good examples all the time on this board of things the JWs teach that are demonstrably false.

:: If "love among yourselves" is the mark, JWs finish poorly among the religions I have seen.

: What other religious order refuses to go to war and kill fellow members in other countries?

That's only one aspect of "love among yourselves", and is arguable in any case. But AuldSoul's point was that in their own congregations, JWs often demonstrate that they really don't have this love. Again, literally thousands of posts on this board prove it.

:: If reliance on the teachings of men who proclaimed themselves to be chosen by God is the mark, JWs have no peers and must be the true religion.

: The above is why some (including my friend previously mentioned) feel that despite all their faults , there is some merit in JWism ,

Yes, just as there is some merit to all religions. If there were no merit, no one would join.

: and why they point to the preaching work as some support for their religion.

Right, and this pointing demonstrably has serious problems.

: I make no claim to be an apologist - I have tremendous doubts myself.

Which is why I term you a semi-apologist. Your post here illustrates this again.

: However , I do not share Auldsoul's view that Jehovah's witnesses (or more specifically their leadership) are corrupt or evil - I take the view that they are simply sincere , honest men who try hard to discern principles and prophecies from scripture but who are misguided when they claim that they inhabit the sole channel of direction and holy spiri and who have "gone beyond what is written" in imposing further laws on their flock.

AuldSoul has clearly demontrated why your view is wrong. Watchtower leaders are modern-day Pharisees, and despite the fact that some are sincere, others are not because they, like the Pharisees, are demonstrably more interested in maintaining 'their place and their nation' than in doing the will of God or obeying real Christian principles. They, like the Pharisees, are gross hypocrites. This is demonstrated, for example, by their ordering three bodies of elders, one week before the NBC Dateline show on JWs and child molestation aired back in 2002, to disfellowship the main ex-JW critics who they knew were to appear on the show. For more examples, just keep reading this board.

AlanF