Lately I`ve been in conflict with jw-apologists on Wikipedia in my country. The most annoying thing is when the jws are trying to rewrite doctrine to make it sound more humane than it really is. Everyone on this board, everyone who ever was a jw or were raised as a jw,knows what the REAL doctrine is on this issue. We were taught to believe that only jws (in good standing) and their underaged, unbaptised children, would have any chanse of surviving Armageddon. That is a damn, unchangeable fact. Lately, jw-apologists have been trying to change and twist this, when presenting their religion, for example on wikipedia (but also in other forums, such as that infamous interview with a highstanding Watchtower-official by a member of this board, not long ago). I was very shocked when I found out that they are LYING about this to outsiders! The depth of the jw-treachery and "theocratic warfare" never really dawned on me, until I discovered this. The question is: How do we combat this? What I am particularly concerned about, is how people who know little or nothing about jws, and who are presented with this pr-friendly version of "the truth", can, and will be fooled. Especially when I am presenting the "other view" (the real view on who survives Armageddon), and whomever I am presenting it to realises that I am an "apostate", and they will think "well, this guy is very critical towards jws, and can`t be trusted". (This is even more frustrating when I KNOW I am right about this!!!) Any thoughts on how to combat this?
JW-apologists - and who survives Armageddon?
by Hellrider 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
5go
Let me guess, most of it comes from a user named duffer. He is just plain stuipid or brainwashed strait from the GB.
-
OUTLAW
Hey HellRider..Thier lying about this at the doors too..The woman told me,they have no idea who will live through armageddon..Lying B*tch!!..LOL!!..I just have to laugh,they come to the door preaching "the truth" with lies..???..Exactly how does that work?..LOL!!..We just have to remind them what they learned at the Kingdom Hall and we know thier lying.....Who will Survive Armageddon?..WatchTower,September 1,1989 page 19..That ought to jog thier memory..Oh ya,almost forgot..Let them know you caught them in a lie..Again!..LOL!!...OUTLAW
-
-
AlanF
The following two quotations might be of help, Hellrider:
w89 9/1 19 Remaining Organized for Survival Into the Millennium
Only Jehovah?s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the ?great crowd,? as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.km 4/97 3 Directing Students to the Organization Behind Our Name
5 Shoulder the Responsibility: Every disciple maker must realize that it is his responsibility to direct the Bible student to God?s organization. (1 Tim. 4:16) Each study session should be viewed as a stepping-stone toward the happy day when the new one will symbolize his dedication to Jehovah by water baptism. One of the questions that he will be asked during the baptism ceremony is: ?Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah?s Witnesses in association with God?s spirit-directed organization?? Hence, it is important that he realize he cannot serve God without actively associating with the true Christian congregation.?Matt. 24:45-47; John 6:68; 2 Cor. 5:20.AlanF
-
OUTLAW
I didn`t have the article at hand..Thanks AlanF..WBT$ has the library at the UN..We`ve got AlanF..LOL!!...OUTLAW
-
Hellrider
Thanks all. Yes, it`s quotes like the ones Alan F provided I`m looking for. I had the first one, from the WT, but not the second one. I`ll look at jw-files, thanks Atlantis.
I noticed there was another thread about Wikipedia the other day, by Lady Lee, I think. I think it`s important that all the "apostates" of the various countries get involved, when they see JWs abusing Wikipedia. For example, there is one norwegian jw spreading his deceit and lies all over norwegian, danish and possibly swedish wikipedia. That`s a lot of misinformation to a lot of people...it has to be stopped, or at least damage-controlled.
-
Star Moore
Hi Hellrider:
How about telling them this truth..that everyone survives Armaggedon..
Because it's the Lamb's war against the government. Not the killing of everyone..
-
Death to the Pixies
The following was compiled by another JW apologist and deals with some of the quotes provided:
This question arises from time to time and it should be important to reflect the accurate portrayal of what is taught by Jehovah's Witnesses in this area.
Notice the following quotations from the publications as to what we view in regard to this issue.
*** w76 6/1 347-8 Look Forward with Confidence in God's Righteousness and Justice ***
16. Observe, however, that Jesus did not leave it up to humans to determine who are the "sheep" and who are the "goats." How fine that is! For, if we humans were responsible to judge, how could we properly evaluate factors such as: How much of an opportunity did a person have to hear and accept the good news? Did his genetic, family or religious background affect his response? What is his heart condition?does he love righteousness? If he is a child or was born mentally retarded, how much bearing should family or community responsibility have on the matter??1 Cor. 7:14; Deut. 30:19.17. Unquestionably, not one of us is qualified to weigh these, and perhaps many other, vital factors and principles. We could not reach judgments that are 'perfect, righteous and upright.' (Deut. 32:4) Hence, why should any of us become needlessly involved with trying to decide who will survive and who will not? If we say, 'I think these people in this certain situation are "goats" and will perish eternally, but those in that other category will live,' are we not making ourselves judges? (Jas. 4:12) Rather than trying to decide whether a certain person, family or group of persons fits the description of the "goats" or not, we can be content to leave the matter in the hands of "the Judge of all the earth."?Gen. 18:25.
18. God's judgments are not merely a matter of applying strict, unfeeling justice. His mercy, compassion and love are involved. As the psalmist David put it: "He has not done to us even according to our sins; nor according to our errors has he brought upon us what we deserve." (Ps. 103:10) Actually the only wages that imperfect, sinful humans deserve is death. (Rom. 6:23) Yet, in his mercy and compassion Jehovah has purposed that the message of salvation be spread extensively so that humans might gain life. He wants them to do so. (Ezek. 33:11; Isa. 55:6, 7) If God's mercy, love and compassion have been displayed so consistently down to this time, and we have benefited from them, cannot we be absolutely certain that they will come into play, too, in the judgment at the conclusion of the system of things? Yes, the survivors will be absolutely right when they proclaim, "Jehovah God, the Almighty, true and righteous are your judicial decisions."?Rev. 16:5-7; 19:1, 2.
*** w95 10/15 28 What Future for the Sheep and the Goats? ***
23 Many are exposed to our message as we preach from house to house or informally. Others may learn of Jehovah's Witnesses and what we represent in ways unknown to us. When judgment time arrives, to what extent will Jesus consider community responsibility and family merit? We cannot say, and it is pointless to speculate.*** rs 47 Armageddon ***
What will happen to young children at Armageddon?
The Bible does not directly answer that question, and we are not the judges.***w98 8/15 20 Strengthening Our Confidence in God's Righteousness***
18. With complete confidence in Jehovah's righteousness, we need not worry about finding answers to questions like: 'How will babies and small children be judged? Might it be that a large number of people will not yet have been reached with the good news when Armageddon arrives? What about the mentally ill? What about...?' Granted, at present we may not know how Jehovah will resolve these issues. He will do so, however, in a righteous and merciful way. We should never doubt that. In fact, we may be amazed and delighted to observe him resolve them in a way that we never even considered."It should be apparent that we simply are not certain what Jehovah will do in regard to the above mentioned scenarios of people, their lives and their extent of exposure to the message God gives. Does this mean that the above mentioned ones will be resurrected even if they were to die at Armageddon? Possibly so. Nothing in scripture would conclusively deny that possibility. Is it possible these ones will survive Armageddon? Possibly so. Again, nothing in scripture would demand otherwise.
One might wonder why God would resurrect some that he had put to death at Armageddon. Why not bring them through the battle onto the new earth? As we said, he just might do that, but, on the other hand, he may choose to "cleanse" the earth and establishing that pure and righteous nucleus of faithful worshippers and possibly even resurrecting the "righteous" first before ever introducing the "unrighteous" back to the earth for their education and chance for salvation.
What of some the comments made in the literaure that appears to say something different? For instance:
*** You Can live Forever (1982, 1990) p.255 ***
Do not conclude that there are different roads, or ways,
that you can follow to gain life in God's new system. There
is only one. There was just one ark that survived the Flood,
not a number of boats. And there will be only one
organization--God's visible organization -- that will
survive the fast-approaching "great tribulation." It is
simply not true that all religions lead to the same goal . .
. . You must be part of Jehovah's organization, doing God's
will, in order to receive his blessing of everlasting
life...It is true that we believe that there is only one ORGANIZATION that will survive the great tribulation and Armageddon. We believe that TRUE Christiaity IS the organization. To us, they are synonymous. However, if he chooses to cause the survival of some INDIVIDUALS for the reasons mentioned above, that statement is still true, because those ones would survive, not as members of any organization, but as individuals. Organizationally speaking, there is but one that will survive. The other organizations of the world and the other religious organizations will not. The quote was primarily in contrast to other religious organizations. That statement does not preclude the possiblility of God allowing certain individuals to survive as is mentioned above.
And yes, everyone must become a member of that organization in order to receive everlasting life, which says nothing more than everyone MUST JOIN THEMSELVES TO TRUE CHRISTIANITY, but, please keep in mind, we do not subscribe to the belief that JUST because you survive Armageddon, you are automatically granted eternal life. That doesn't happen to anyone on earth until the end of the thousand years, so you must keep that comment in its proper perspective .
The Watchtower, September 1, 1989, p. 19: "Remaining
organized for Survival Into the Millennium":
Only Jehovah?s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and
the "great crowd," as a united organization under the
protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural
hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system
dominated by Satan the Devil. ...For survival into the
Millennium under the Greater Noah, Jesus Christ, they have
to remain organized with the anointed remnant, "the chosen
ones" on account of whom the days of the "great tribulation"
will be cut short.You have to understand again what this is saying. Just because the scriptures do not hold out a specific hope for anyone but true Christians does not rule out the potential for others to survive. There is a difference between saying there is no "scriptural" hope and there is NO hope. In other words, the scriptures do not address their survival so we can not point to a passage or verse and say there is your scriptural hope of survival if you are not an active worshipper of Jehovah. On the other hand the scriptures do hold out a "scriptural" hope for those who are activer worshippers of Jehovah. But one should be careful to not make an article say more than it was intending to address. Would we as Jehovah"s Witnesses take from this article that all the unbaptized, undedicated children of Jehovah"s Witnesses will not survive the end? Clearly it was not addressing that aspect of survival, just as it was not addressing the aspects that were mentioned in the other articles I quoted above. One article can balance the information in another and that is the case here. You must discern between generalization statements and specific ones.
The Watchtower, December 1, 1999, p. 18:
Be Happy Readers of the Book of Revelation
The message is clear: If we want to survive Armageddon, we
must remain spiritually alert and keep the symbolic garments
that identify us as faithful Witnesses of Jehovah God.
(The Watchtower, April 15, 1991, p. 28; April 1, 1991, pp.
21-2): "Jehovah's Witnesses are unique in ever so many ways.
They alone speak the 'pure language.' " (The Watchtower,
January 15, 1992, p. 24) Given this, the following again
demonstrates what JWs teach about who will be saved. From
the Watchtower, January 15, 1991, p. 29:
The Pure Language Unites a Great Crowd of Worshipers
"Become United by the Pure Language" was the title of Friday?s public talk. The speaker showed that ... All need
to be concerned about learning and speaking the pure
language, for only those doing so will survive Armageddon.So once again, have we lost our unbaptized, undedicated children at Armageddon? Do you think the speaker was being exhaustive in his comments about Armageddon survivors or was he speaking in a generalization? There are clearly exceptions to all these statements as are apparent from other articles that address the exceptions.
-
AlanF
As usual, Death to the Pixies, you JW apologist you (I don't care if you say this was from "another JW apologist" -- your own message is clear), you've pretty much sidestepped the point.
The point of your quotations is that the Society didn't really mean what it said when it said that only Jehovah's Witnesses would survive Armageddon. There are all those hangers-on, those nasty and problematic unbaptized children to deal with, those wishy-washy "Bible Studies" who have been waffling for a few weeks or years -- sort of JWs but not quite. Clearly, the WTS writer meant to include most of these, but was too lousy a writer and thinker to include such esoteric detail, and he left it up to lesser lights like the great JW unwashed to figure it out for themselves.
The point that you've missed, and the people you've quoted have deliberately overlooked, has nothing to do with such minor details. It has everything to do with major details. Such a major detail is clearly enunciated in the April 1997 Kingdom Ministry that I quoted, along the lines that "if a person isn't a reasonably solid JW, or at least a JW sympathizer, he cannot serve God, even in principle, because God rejects the worship of non-JWs."
Everything else you've quoted is mere doubletalk, designed to deceive the unwary into becoming or excusing Jehovah's Witnesses.
Let's see if you can argue your way around these problems. Based on your past performance, I think you won't even try.
AlanF