Posts by Alf3831

29

Governing Buzzards - Part 7 - Did Rutherford have a Mistress?

by Amazing in

jw
friends

governing buzzards ?

changes in religious doctrine, dogma, cannon, practices, liturgy and ritual are common and almost all christians have witnessed this in their denominations ?

including fringe groups like jehovah?s witnesses.

Alf3831

Jimmy,

My response to your post was to simply show that the to imply that the Judge had a mistress and discuss it in a public forum, with such limited resources is irresponsible in my opinion. The minimal information I provided was posted to provide an alternative, that your post did not or possible would not explore.

Obviously the Judge had some issues. Whether he having a mistress is fact or not, who can honestly make that claim today. I have admired some of your posts in the past, and to involve yourself in claims based on limited/thin possibilities is rather beneath your other more substantive posts. That is all I was hoping to accomplish in responding to your post.

I look forward to reading your comments on the Moyle trial.

Sincerely,

Alf3831

PS. The Judge was actually judge for 4-days not one.

29

Governing Buzzards - Part 7 - Did Rutherford have a Mistress?

by Amazing in

jw
friends

governing buzzards ?

changes in religious doctrine, dogma, cannon, practices, liturgy and ritual are common and almost all christians have witnessed this in their denominations ?

including fringe groups like jehovah?s witnesses.

Alf3831

Amazing,

I said the following:

Sexy underwear that she was wearing in the 1960's? Cmon, Rutherford had been dead for 20 years and you show that as some sort of proof?

You then responded with the following:

I never said that ... you are taking a minor point made by Larc, and attempting to manipulate it to say that is the linch-pin of the account. To be intellectually honest, lets' add in the rest of the facts:

I did not mean to imply that this was the only point made in your post. However, this piece of info in and of itself is meaningless, and neither proves or provides any circumstantial evidence.

You then cite the following:

1. Berta leaves her husband to go to Bethel, and then divorces her husband.
2. She immediately gets assigned to a privileged position instead of waiting to work her way up the ranks.
3. She accompanies and lives with Rutherford the rest of his life.
4. I conclude with the remark that the REST OF THE STORY will be made available in the next part when the documented information from the Olin Moyle trial is brought out.

1. Someone leaving their mate to go to bethel and divorcing their husband, doesnt mean they are having an affair with Rutherford, sorry......

2. Just because she gets assigned a special position, is nothing new, as I have stated before. This was commonplace back then. I gave other examples, such as Bert Schroeder. I am sure other stories of favortism exist.

3. Also, there are many that lived and accompanied Rutherford during this time period. Shall we conclude that since he had a close relationship with William Heath, and lived with him at times, means they may have had homosexual tendencies? Cmon, Rutherford constantly maintained a staff with him...this piece is not as damaging as I am sure you had hoped.

4. It has been nearly 10 years since I have read the Moyle transcripts. Would be interested to know your conclusions based on the testimony provided by both Moyle and the WT respondents.

You fail to mention any of this though it is clearly stateing in my opening post. Fascinating. Finally, I never conclude or attempt to prove that Rutherford has a mistress, with sex photos ... rather, I ask the question, tell the story as relayed to me by Larc, the nephew of Berta ... and show that at least a strong possibility existed that she was Rutgherford's mistress ... now, let's see what is shown in Part 8, The Olin Moyle Trial, and then shower me with loving criticism.

I did provide a response to the issue of favortism and the meaningless info on the "special underwear." I did not read in your post that you conclude that Rutherford did in fact have a mistress, given your lack of substantive evidence. However by citing Larc's info and posting them with your comments, shows that you imply it and as such feel this is simply shoddy baseless research and commentary.

Anyway, your additional information is interesting. It is mostly common knowledge, and is not relevant to this account, but thanks for sharing anyway.

The information I provided proved that Berta was not alone residing with Rutherford, rather there is substantial information indicating that Rutherford maintained a staff with him on a continual basis. This proves that Berta in all likelihood could not have had an affair with Rutherford. Also, the issue of favortism was shown to be meaningless. All additional information was simply provided to correct your inaccurate statements.

Hope this helps.

Alf3831

29

Governing Buzzards - Part 7 - Did Rutherford have a Mistress?

by Amazing in

jw
friends

governing buzzards ?

changes in religious doctrine, dogma, cannon, practices, liturgy and ritual are common and almost all christians have witnessed this in their denominations ?

including fringe groups like jehovah?s witnesses.

Alf3831

VM44,

We need more research like you have done.
Are you planning a book?

I did some research on Rutherford about 8 years ago. I was unable to complete it, though I still have my old notes, documentation and interviews. I considered writing a book, but my research wasnt complete and was not enough to fill a book. There is some good information that can be obtained from the Moyle transcripts, but I have come to conclude that there is always two sides to a story, and I dont take either the Judge nor Moyle's side of the story at face value.

Alf3831

29

Governing Buzzards - Part 7 - Did Rutherford have a Mistress?

by Amazing in

jw
friends

governing buzzards ?

changes in religious doctrine, dogma, cannon, practices, liturgy and ritual are common and almost all christians have witnessed this in their denominations ?

including fringe groups like jehovah?s witnesses.

Alf3831

When I first saw the heading of this post I thought some convincing evidence would be brought out to show that at least in all probability, the Judge did have a mistress. In reading the post, it leaves much to be desired. Sexy underwear that she was wearing in the 1960's? Cmon, Rutherford had been dead for 20 years and you show that as some sort of proof? Granted there seems to be some issues here regarding a sort of favortism on the part of Rutherford. However, this was very common back then. Some may recall that Rutherford's secretary was given the opportunity to remain a bethelite, even though she had married. How about Bert Schroeder (Family and all) being a recent University of Michigan grad and brought into bethel, and being amongst the first instructors at Gilead. Such arrangements are nothing out of the ordinary. Also, we have been given no evidence of the reasons why this individual divorced her husband. This special pleading is an attempt to simply paint a negative picture of the Judge, without a substantive foundation.

The post seemed to imply that only Rutherford and his dietician were amongst the Beth-Sarim residents. However, it has been well-documented that Beth-Sarim had many regular visitors, and a staff that lived with Rutherford. No mention is given of the Balko family, with their two children who maintained the grounds and had dinner at Beth-Sarim on a regular basis. Dan Sydlik mentioned meeting Rutherford at Beth-Sarim in the 6/1/85 Watchtower. Sandra Cowen, a JW in San Diego mentioned going to Beth Sarim often and mentions that there were full-time servants (WT, 3/1/92). The May 27, 1942 Consolation also discusses that a staff was maintained at Beth-Sarim. This is not to mention of William Heath, who was Rutherford's secretary before his death and stayed at the residence along with his wife. I also interviewed a James Smitha back in 1995, who was a bethelite from 1934-1936, and discussed spending several days with Rutherford and his staff at Beth-Sarim back in 1933.

Now, with all these regular visitors, including the San Diego witnesses, Knorr, and others visiting regularly, and the full-time staff at the residence. Also, the fact that for 12 years he only spent his winters there, you think he was able sneek around with his dietician?

BTW, Mary Rutherford lived in Monrovia, California which is just about a 100 mile trek to the north. So we have no idea if there was any communication there. She remained an active Jehovah's Witness until her death in 1962.

Also, Malcolm Rutherford was involved with the Los Angeles Ecclesia up until the early 1930's. I have confirmed this during an interview with a member of that congregation who knew Malcolm and his wife. Apparently there was a split in this congregation, and subsequently Malcolm no longer attended. He was an attorney in Los Angeles and died in 1989. Just for the record, it is well-documented that he refused interviews from both Jehovah's Witnesses and their opposers (Duane Muagini, being one of them).

Alf3831

8

Johannes Greber -Spirit Medium's translation used in NWT-john1:1

by wednesday in

http://www.premier1.net/~raines/greber.html

http://www.premier1.net/~raines/wtgreber.html

i called the why 1914 line yesterday and talked with them, they gave me some excellent inffo about johannes greber, a spiritual medium who the wts used to back up john 1:1. i was appalled.

Alf3831

The issue regarding Greber has been discussed to death, in my opinion. It has been shown by several researchers who have delved into this issue, that at most what the Greber situation proves is that the WT society is guilty of shoddy research. There seems to be significant evidence that individuals who were responsible in quoting from this translation from the early 60's through the late 70's had no idea of his connection with spiritism. This has been confirmed with a few former members of the writing department, specifically Ray Franz and Reinhard Lengtat. Apparently the author of the article in 1956 who knew of Greber's background, was either no longer on the writing committee, or apparently forgot about Greber's background which according to several former bethelites is not all that uncommon.

Stafford's appendix on this issue was amazingly accurate, even though he did not have the testimony of former writers at the time of its preparation.

Any comments made regarding this situation that goes beyond what is noted above has an agenda and is simply trying to paint the JW's in a bad light.

Alf3831

11

Michael Jackson's Mom/Firpo Carr/William's Sister

by ExpandedMind in

jw
friends

how can "active" jws such as mj's mom, firpo carr and the william's sister who attended mjs support party, openly support him (because he is an exjw) without getting reproved or disfellowshipped by the organization?

i know that we don't see what goes on behind the scenes, perhaps the do get a "talking to" by the elders, but it seems lately that certain active jws are more bold about associating openly with exjws.. has anyone ever read anything about mjs mom's justification of her on-going relationship with mj?

i realize that situations like this (jws associating with exjws) go on all the time in the organization; it is nothing new.

Alf3831

Last I heard Firpo W. Carr remains an active JW, who professes to be of the anointed (has done so since he was around 19 yrs of age). Firpo's picture came out in a WT magazine in late 2000 or early 2001. It showed lots of pics of brothers/sisters at the convention. He came out in one wearing african gear.

In my interaction with Firpo he is a very kind and articulate individual. However, once the camera is on, or if on the radio, imo he becomes a different person. Unfortunately he has bought into the hype regarding his status as an african-american leader.

Alf3831

90

What Is The Stupidest Rule You've Encountered As a Witness?

by minimus in

jw
friends

one rule that i never could understand is that if you were studying with an unbelieving husband, you could associate with him, even as couples, but if a person was considered a "weak" witness, it was best to avoid any association until that person changed......what dumb rule or belief comes to your mind??

?

Alf3831

Wow, I have encountered many odd rules, among them are the following:

If you are either privately or publically reproved or also disfellowshipped, you can't be appointed a ministerial servant until three years has expired from the time you were reinstated. Hmmm, I guess Peter denying Christ three times, then leading the ministy shortly after his resurrection meant they didnt abide by the 3-year rule back in the first century.

If you divorce your mate for something other than adultery, you are technically still married and unable to date another. However, if you were to have sexual relations with your now divorced mate, you could get disfellowshipped for fornication, given you are no longer "legally" married....huh???????

I always thought it was rather odd when sisters would divorce their mate for something other than adultery...hold out on any sexual activity with their now divorced rape, then occasionally call and ask "Am I scripturally free yet?" Meaning, has the former mate had intimate relations with another. When this occurs, then the sister or brother, is now free to pursue another, given they now have grounds for a biblical divorce. huh??????????

Odd indeed.

Alf3831

32

A Curiosity

by ozziepost in

back in 1972 the wtb&ts published a new translation of the bible, "the bible in living english", otherwise known as byington's translation.. who was byington?.

the publisher's note tells us that steven t byington was born in 1868 and studied languages at a university and a theological seminary.

he was a member of the congregational church in massachusetts, usa and the translation was almost his lifetime's work.

Alf3831

"Thanks Alf for your observations. I am curious though, how in heck did you get copies of correspondence between Franz and Goodspeed? It would have to take an act of congress wouldn't."

Not really.

Several years ago I was given access to Edgar Goodspeeds private papers through the University of Chicago. It was there that I found several letters between Goodspeed and the WT. Two of these letters were from/to Freddy Franz, back in 1947 I believe. I believe you can now obtain copies of these private papers via UOC, you have to write to them, and they will let you know regarding costs of copies. They will also ask for reasons why you want to review Goodspeeds papers. Any research-related reason will do...

Hope this helps.

Alf3831

32

A Curiosity

by ozziepost in

back in 1972 the wtb&ts published a new translation of the bible, "the bible in living english", otherwise known as byington's translation.. who was byington?.

the publisher's note tells us that steven t byington was born in 1868 and studied languages at a university and a theological seminary.

he was a member of the congregational church in massachusetts, usa and the translation was almost his lifetime's work.

Alf3831

To all,

I did some research on the development of the New World Translation Committee a number of years ago. Through interviews with older-bethelites and JW researchers, I was able to confirm that Steven T. Byington was involved to some extent in assisting the NWTC in preparation for the NWT Bible. The extent of his assistance is unknown. I know there was correspondence between Freddy Franz and Byington, Goodpseed, Waddell prior to the 1950 release of the Christian Greek Scriptures. I have only been able to obtain copies of the correspondence between Franz and Goodspeed. This was I believe in 1947, when the Committee was first formed. Franz was asking for Goodspeeds assistance regarding information on Septuagint (LXX) manuscripts containing the divine name. Goodspeed was in his late seventies by this time, and was obviously not as in tune with biblical scholarship as he was when he was professor at the University of Chicago. Goodspeed did not supply Franz with any detailed information, and in fact, was rather unaware that such manuscripts existed. An interesting side-note regarding Goodspeed was that not too many people know that he used to subscribe to the Watchtower magazine. He discontinued his subscription because he did not like the Awake's magazine's quotation of a Time magazine article. Apparently at the time, he didnt consider Time to be a reputable news source. He sent the WT an angry letter and asked for his subscription to the Watchtower to be cancelled.

Now, regarding Byington's translation. If I recall correctly, the Watchtower purchased his manuscript in 1951. This was several years before his passing. So the story regarding the wife donating the translation is not true. I dont have any details as to why the society felt it necessary to purchase Byington's manuscript. I think it is rather odd though that they waited 21 years to publish the translation.

Hope this helps

Alf3831

14

Greg Stafford

by Gordy in

jw
friends

many here will know that greg stafford is an independent jw apologist.

he has defended watchtower doctrine, written a number of books and publicly debated rob bowman (also soon to publicly debate james white).

this has confused a lot of people as jws are discouraged from public debate.

Alf3831

To all,

It is true that Greg has been visited recently by the local elders. However, no further meetings, nor judicial committee has been formed. Greg's status is unchanged.

Alf3831