if the average congregation has about 83 publishers in the us, then the organization may be sinking into a crisis.. take that 83 and consider that half the congregations may have less.. take away '15 minute publishers' who don't attend.
take away completely fake publishers who rarely attend.
take away increasingly tired publishers who 'feel sick', are depressed, or just want to stay at home and watch tv.. .
There's been a dramatic decrease in this area...........cities with 4 congregations going to 3..........an assembly hall that used to have 7 cong.......now down to 4 (none of them share a hall anymore).
There's been whole circuits dissolved, let alone congregations.
I think it's going to get worse as time goes on..........I feel sorry for the elders left to keep up the schedule when they're the only ones left...........(last one out can turn the lights off)
yeah, it's -34 degrees celcius, windchill is in the -50s (i guess their scale doesn't go any lower) and the boss came by to ask me to shovel snow.
various schools have been closed, apparently it's colder here than many places up north, and here i am, an electronics technician who just finished a college course which half was paid by the company, and i'm shoveling snow.
the measley 24 cent raise i got this year isn't worth it.
It's pretty frosty here too, Nosferatu......-40 last night..........colder if you add in the wind chill. But, you know what they say about the Prairies......."it's only a dry cold".
well, looks like they do have a new date for the conclusion of the end, and that we should "be prepared".
even some people that commented said that 90 years of the 120 years have passed by and we should be prepared for the time at hand.
2034 people, 2034.... i've had enough, i'm talkign to the elder about this one, i don't care if i get labelled or not.
As a few more years go by...........I foresee another big problem for the Society.........the members of the Governing body themselves days are numbered (as in their normal lifespan), so who is going to fill their shoes if a couple more decades go by?
I know they've already included a number of "regular" people in many areas........but never have any of these people taken over for any GB members.
I think there's only 11 members currently............appointing very recently anointed members (well after 1935) would cause a major credibility problem.
Note: very interesting essay on E-watchman.........."the coming collapse of the Watchtower"
there has been a lot of advice given to parents from the organization over the years.........mainly "don't have any"............ it seems that the ones who would make the best parents (from the society's point of view) are the very ones following this counsel and for the most part are deciding against children.
our cong.
has many childless couples...........they're very theocratic.. this results (in many cases) the not so "spiritually strong" individuals being the ones who are raising families in many congregations.. (i mentioned recently about a pioneer couple being interviewed at a district convention several years ago.........when asked by the do about their goals...........they mentioned they had "vowed" to never own a house, and "vowed" to never have children...........do said "that's great!
There has been a lot of advice given to parents from the organization over the years.........mainly "don't have any"...........
It seems that the ones who would make the best parents (from the Society's point of view) are the very ones following this counsel and for the most part are deciding against children. Our cong. has many childless couples...........they're very theocratic.
This results (in many cases) the not so "spiritually strong" individuals being the ones who are raising families in many congregations.
(I mentioned recently about a pioneer couple being interviewed at a District Convention several years ago.........when asked by the DO about their goals...........they mentioned they had "vowed" to never own a house, and "vowed" to never have children...........DO said "that's great!".......most of the audience applauded.......)
In any case, the people the organization feels shouldn't be having kids, (ones who don't follow the letter of the law) are the very ones raising families today in the congregations.
Is this the general trend in congregations you're familiar with?
the rank and file fears "apostates" hence jws will not accpet any evidence or arguments from succh like ones.
the mind set automatically rejects any charges against the wts without examining facts obejectivle because the wts cannot be wrong.by definition jws view the wts as god's agency, so it cannot be wrong and even if it is wrong, it is for a reason that god is allowing it and it is god's arrangement and not the business of the rank and file to judge for themselves on that but,to leave it in j's hand and in time it will be taken care of.
in law that is called a catch all, which is sometimes the power that a judge is empowered with by the state to use his discretion and do whatever the hell he wants, pardon the phrase.. it is true that the wts has opoosers that distort facts and trump up charges in order to discredit the wts, but false accustaions against thewts do not camcel out real evidence that challenges the wt and above and beyond wt teachings is the evidence that puts a differebnt spin on and shows another perspective of the bible, and the concept of god affecting in peoples lives.
An elder told a group of us that "it's okay to not agree with the Society on some of their teachings, you just have to keep it to yourself........." (I won't say how long ago.......can't be too specific)
He didn't elaborate on which "teachings" he didn't agree with, but I certainly got the impression there was more than one.
He's still extremely spiritual...he would never be lurking on this board I'm sure.........but this and similiar comments by others in general conversation show that they're not so excited when some "new thought" is printed in the Watchtower.
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now that we're starting to read the bible at the beginning again.........i was wondering if this subject has ever been discussed.. the length of the creative days........used to be considered 7000 years in length.......stated rather dogmatically up until around the mid 1980's.
(aid book says this......insight book does not) of course....this is quite rediculous.......... more recent publications don't stress this .........just periods of time.......... yet there was never anything published to indicate how wrong this old view was.........done very gradually.......i think some still think the creative days were still 7000 years long.. if this topic has come up before.....maybe someone could post a link to it..
I really enjoyed all your posts...........it's obvious the Society just keeps this very vague on purpose.
All the publications used to state emphatically all the days were exactly the same length......but this is no longer mentioned either. Once again though, there are many older ones who still think that.
This is the quote from the Insight book.........
(INSIGHT BOOK- pg. 545)
Since the length of each creative day exceeded 24 hours (as will be discussed later), this expression does not apply to literal night and day but is figurative. During the evening period things would be indistinct; but in the morning they would become clearly discernible. During the "evening," or beginning, of each creative period, or "day," God?s purpose for that day, though fully known to him, would be indistinct to any angelic observers. However, when the "morning" arrived there would be full light as to what God had purposed for that day, it having been accomplished by that time.?Compare Pr 4:18.
Length
of Creative Days. The Bible does not specify the length of each of the creative periods. Yet all six of them have ended, it being said with respect to the sixth day (as in the case of each of the preceding five days): "And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a sixth day." (Ge 1:31) However, this statement is not made regarding the seventh day, on which God proceeded to rest, indicating that it continued. (Ge 2:1-3) Also, more than 4,000 years after the seventh day, or God?s rest day, commenced, Paul indicated that it was still in progress. At Hebrews 4:1-11 he referred to the earlier words of David (Ps 95:7, 8, 11) and to Genesis 2:2 and urged: "Let us therefore do our utmost to enter into that rest." By the apostle?s time, the seventh day had been continuing for thousands of years and had not yet ended. The Thousand Year Reign of Jesus Christ, who is Scripturally identified as "Lord of the sabbath" (Mt 12:8), is evidently part of the great sabbath, God?s rest day. (Re 20:1-6) This would indicate the passing of thousands of years from the commencement of God?s rest day to its end. The week of days set forth at Genesis 1:3 to 2:3, the last of which is a sabbath, seems to parallel the week into which the Israelites divided their time, observing a sabbath on the seventh day thereof, in keeping with the divine will. (Ex 20:8-11) And, since the seventh day has been continuing for thousands of years, it may reasonably be concluded that each of the six creative periods, or days, was at least thousands of years in length.
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now that we're starting to read the bible at the beginning again.........i was wondering if this subject has ever been discussed.. the length of the creative days........used to be considered 7000 years in length.......stated rather dogmatically up until around the mid 1980's.
(aid book says this......insight book does not) of course....this is quite rediculous.......... more recent publications don't stress this .........just periods of time.......... yet there was never anything published to indicate how wrong this old view was.........done very gradually.......i think some still think the creative days were still 7000 years long.. if this topic has come up before.....maybe someone could post a link to it..
Now that we're starting to read the Bible at the beginning again.........I was wondering if this subject has ever been discussed.
The Length of the creative days........used to be considered 7000 years in length.......stated rather dogmatically up until around the mid 1980's. (Aid book says this......Insight book does not) Of course....this is quite rediculous.........
More recent publications don't stress this .........just periods of time.........
Yet there was never anything published to indicate how wrong this old view was.........done very gradually.......I think some still think the creative days were still 7000 years long.
If this topic has come up before.....maybe someone could post a link to it.
here's the book of enoch link for those interested:.
lets compare the book of jude, 2peter and1enoch and notice some startling similarities:.
jude -14 yes, the seventh one [in line] from adam, enoch, (enoch 60: 8 ) prophesied also regarding them, when he said (enoch 1:9): "look!
I find this very interesting.......thanks for the research. I've been reading some of the apocryphal texts on the internet, as well as writings of the early Christians following the apostles.
The watchtowers do contain histories of the early Christians at times........but often the view is slanted toward present doctrine, etc.
i remember when i started mingling with the jw's in the mid 80's, they said that it was too late in this system to have children.
the great tribulation just around the corner made it a bad idea to have children, they said.. today with just about "zero increase" having children is a way of ensuring future witnesses.
i didn't set foot in a kh in 2 years, but if i remember well, the only new faces i saw were children that became adults.. i wonder if they still discourage witnesses from having children...or do they see it as something good now, since not many are joining?
I think this issue has turned around 180 degrees from years ago. Some have already mentioned references to past statements about "responsible childbearing".......etc. In the past it was pretty much discouraged. But the last summer's district convention had a part which was quite different.
Children are now considered a "blessing" again. What a difference from other conventions.........I recall an interview with a pioneer couple (early 1980's).........they "vowed to never have children, and never to own a house" right from the platform. (I recall the CO saying..."that's great"......most of the audience applauded....)
There've been numerous occasions when parents were made to feel quite uncomfortable when an over-zealous brother had a part regarding this subject over the years..........what has resulted is that the most spiritually-minded ones decided against a family.........ones not so inclined to go by "the letter of the law" did have families.
I wonder if that pioneer couple have lived up to their vow yet today?
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would some of you still be in the organization if these two individual's reforms had been adopted?.
ironically..........i think the society is gradually moving in the direction of some of their ideas......... 0ne example..........i recall a tv interview in which james penton (whom i met when he was still a witness) made the argument that blood transfusions should be allowed in an emergency ........and used the example of david and his men eating the "show bread" while on the run from saul........normally totally off-limits but okay in this case.. this thinking was of course condemned by the society........but i wouldn't be surprised if that idea resurfaces some day because of all the back-tracking on this stand, as well as many blood components now being allowed.
Would some of you still be in the organization if these two individual's reforms had been adopted?
Ironically..........I think the Society is gradually moving in the direction of some of their ideas........
0ne example..........I recall a TV interview in which James Penton (whom I met when he was still a Witness) made the argument that blood transfusions should be allowed in an emergency ........and used the example of David and his men eating the "show bread" while on the run from Saul........normally totally off-limits but okay in this case.
This thinking was of course condemned by the Society........but I wouldn't be surprised if that idea resurfaces some day because of all the back-tracking on this stand, as well as many blood components now being allowed.
