Posts by Amazing

10

The JW's Have Targeted My Co-Worker!

by SanFranciscoJim in

jw
friends

i have long believed in separating my personal life from life in the workplace, and rarely discuss matters of a private nature with co-workers.. i work with a woman who has a young daughter (early 20's) who has terminal cancer and probably only weeks left to live.

i've known this woman for a number of years and know her to be sensitive, and compassionate, having a deep faith in god.. i just found out last week that another one of my co-workers is a jw.

i have no intention of "outing" myself to her and she has no idea that she works side-by-side with someone who was disfellowshipped 21 years ago.. my concern is this: today, the jw co-worker approached me and asked me if i know where my other co-worker lives "because i'd like to talk with her about something very important".

Amazing

Hi SFJim: I used to work in San Francisco and lived in the northbay area. I also worked in an office where there were JWs. In my case, however, I was the JW and a co-worker was an ex-JW. I knew he was an ex-JW, but he did not know who I was.

Anyway, I would personally avoid giving the JW woman any information about the dying women or her relatives. Office place and religion, I found, can backfire no matter what side of the fence you are on.

As for warning the dying women or her relatives, that is a tough issue. But, you might wait and see on this one, because it may be that the JW woman will never get her opportunity. And, once you learn she has talked with the dying woman or her relatives, then maybe find an opportunity at lunch or sometime outside the office to open the discussion up. Find out what was said and what the "feelings" are. It could be that these folks will not be warm to the JW message, and you can then aviod saying anything.

The benefit to you is that you will not expose your ex-JW position to the JW woman would might hear about it. But, more importantly, you will avoid the perception that you are using the workplace to promote your views (even if your views are well-intended).

Even while a JW I finally discontinued mentioning my beliefs at work because the social trend and public policy started running against this. In one place I worked at in Washington State, the company view was that any religious discussion by active people like Mormons and JWs with co-workers to be a form of 'harassment', and made their policy very clear that they would not tolerate it.

Hope this is helpful to you. Safeguard your job, and wait and see. Move cautiously so as to avoid any misconceptions. - Amazing

104

Elders' Gems of Wisdom

by stephenw20 in

jw
friends

my dad asked the co about this one.

mat 27:52-53. and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, .

and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Amazing

We had two Sisters with the same last name of Payne. They often sat together since they were also related. One Sunday, one Sister Payne sat upfront, and the other sat in the back. Our Watchtower Conductor, Leo, was a stickler for no-nonsense. He did not like humor at the meetings, because he felt that it was degrading to the seriousness of the spiritual ocassion. During the Watchtower Study, both Sisters Payne raised their hands. He was trying to differentiate between them, and decided to call on Sister Payne, in the rear. Needless to say, the whole congregation broke out in hysterics because of the tension he created. He finally blushed, and laughed. - Amazing

18

I see little good left in WTS

by Amazing in

jw
friends

you said, "so would it be wrong to accept the fact that the wts, despite its flaws, has many good scriptural truths to share.".

i think most of us accept that the wts has done some good, but as the years pass, i find that the good i thought they did is getting less and less, and more importantly, the harm caused is getting greater than i could possibly imagine.. you continued, "can we reject what they have pressed to the world: god has a name, his kingdom is to solve mans problems, the earth is to become a paradise as god purposed, man will live endlessly on earth as intended, those who died will return in a resurrection of the dead rather that burn in hell, and this good news is to be preached in all the earth.".

at this point in my life, after 25 years of being a jw and now an ex-jw, i find their message, its very root concepts, pure fantasy that may not necessarily god's will.

Amazing

Hi Jst2laws:

You said, "So would it be wrong to accept the fact that the WTS, despite its flaws, has many good scriptural truths to share."

I think most of us accept that the WTS has done some good, but as the years pass, I find that the good I thought they did is getting less and less, and more importantly, the harm caused is getting greater than I could possibly imagine.

You continued, "Can we reject what they have pressed to the world: God has a name, His Kingdom is to solve man’s problems, the Earth is to become a paradise as God purposed, man will live endlessly on Earth as intended, those who died will return in a resurrection of the dead rather that burn in hell, and this good news is to be preached in all the earth."

At this point in my life, after 25 years of being a JW and now an ex-JW, I find their message, its very root concepts, pure fantasy that may not necessarily God's will. For example:

God's Name: The WTS is by no means the first to bring about the name Jehovah or Yahweh. But, as Jesus himself stated, God surrendered everything to him, including name recognition. So, the name Jehovah is far less essential in Christianity than the name Jesus Christ. Yet, I am no longer convinced that 'name' recognition or pronunciation is what God or Christ meant, but rather, the persons they are, and how we relate to them.

God's Kingdom: I am convinced at this time that a literal Kingdom 'government' ruling from heaven that would replace human systems is not what the Bible teaches. I have no interest in an all-powerful central government where I am just some number in the data bank, and where I have to conform to some universal master plan of operation. Rather, to me God's Kingdom is what Jesus said it is, 'within us' working out the will of God. It is God's dominion in our hearts through the operation of His Spirit that brings us into His Kingdom. I think if God were truly interested in solving human governmental problems here on this planet, he would not have waited 6,000 years to get-around-to-it. Certainly, any claims of human experimentation with self-rule by trying out various forms of government ended no later than the fall of Rome. Also, nearly 100% of the human family has been totally unaware of any government experimentation process, and thus the message is really lost on the human race.

Earthly Paradise: This is a nice sounding concept. But the fact that the WTS presents it is not unique. Other religions also believe in the concept. But, it is a concept that is hard to say that one does not want, thus forcing an issue that should not even exist. I could start a church tomorrow that says God will end all crime 2 years from now, and then boast at what a wonderful message I have from God and how He is using me. Then two years pass, but crime still exist. I say to my flock that the timing was wrong, but the message was right, so stick with me. I basically skirt the issue of false prophecy. In the same exact way, the false prophecies made by the WTS has not only caused disappointment and harm to its followers, but more importantly, they have aligned themselves with those condemned as not being from God. Deut. 18-20 - ... is a clear example of this. Therefore, when a religion is a clear false prophet, and an unrepentant one at that, then all its teachings become suspect, much the same as a false witness in court that gets discredited.

Hellfire: This is a terrible teaching rooted in much superstition. And, the WTS is not the first, or only, to speak against this doctrine. Many, of not most, reasonable, mature, competent, adult Christians do not accept that 'Hell' is a literal place of fire. Those that do believe in this are either idiots or unwilling to be reasonable. So the WTS belief that when we die, we are really dead, is a correct view in my opinion, but, I see no reason to give the WTS any special Kudos for making this teaching central to their beliefs, any more than saying murder or stealing are wrong. It is a matter of common sense, not some special revelation.

Preaching Good News: If you get a concordance and look up Good News, you will find that 'kingdom' is mentioned about 160 times, whereas 'gospel (good news)' is mentioned about 95 times. BUT, most fascinating is that the Gospel is only mentioned 5 times in the whole New Testament in connection with the Kingdom. All other references are about the Gospel of God, of Christ, of Salvation, etc. For such an all-important theme, it is lost in the Bible message. The places where Kingdom is used alone, that is without mentioning the Gospel, it is mostly about Kingdom of Heaven, and not about any rule here upon earth. All other mention of 'kingdom' are in illustrations, or the devil's kingdom, or national kingdoms, etc. The WTS holding this up as central to Christianity is stretching the Bible and Jesus' words where they do not fit.

You continued, "With all its flaws, no one else is doing this internationally, staying out of politics and wars in each nation, except Jehovah's Witnesses."

False. But, again, where is the Biblical requirement to do so? The WTS is not staying out of politics, as they recently signed a Concordat with the Italian Government elevating them to a special status wherein the WTS gets tax money that other churches do not, except for the Roman Catholic Church, of course. As for war, the Bible says that there is a time for peace and a time for war. Nothing was said by Peter to the Roman Army Officer, Cornelius about leaving the Army. So, this is another WTS forgery of a belief not supported in the Bible.

You continued, "We may not fully understand what the kingdom is, may use God’s name to the extent we rob it of some due dignity, have pushed for holiness and righteousness and obedience to the point of overlooking faith in the ransom as the means to true righteousness, and most of all the leadership have become obsessed with their presumption of speaking for God. I’m embarrassed, but I step back and still see a people God it using, at least as a dragnet. (mat. 13:47-50)"

Your honesty is appreciated, but I think to presume that God is using the WTS or its people is baseless. The message of the WTS is false or at best twisted, and because of their false prophecy, and seriously engaging in other wrong acts disqualifies them and anything that could be called God's organization. However, individual JWs may have favor with God, but that is for Him to judge, not me.

You continued, "Who else is teaching so many of the basic truths World Wide?"

Any group that has developed its central teachings can say the same sort of thing. I could start a church that says wearing Green is wrong. And, then, when I boast, I can say, "Well who else do we know that teaches it is wrong to wear Green, only my group is doing this all-important work. And, when people leave my group, what is the first thing you see them do? They start wearing Green, so that shows the devil has hot hold of them. The whole premise that the WTS is teaching 'basic' truths is flawed, and makes their claim irrelevant.

You continued, "You don’t have to write and tell me they are all serving for the wrong motives and they are all indoctrinated. These problems exit but this is not so of all or I would not be here and you would not be sharpening your pencils to refute me."

Of any positive aspect of the JW religion, the good sincere motives and intention is most admirable. Good motive and sincerity is not a significant problem for the average rank & file JW. The problem is that the majority of JWs are being misled. There are some who are not, and act carefully, and there are many in the leadership that clearly and irrefutably know that the WTS is false, but they either fell powerless to do anything, or they don't care.

I think that the JW religion will eventually be forced to come to terms with what they truly are, as reality catches up to their fantasies. I hope and pray that when this happens, they will not lose faith in God or Christ as the veil is lifted and they see how they were duped. I am sure that the vast majority of JWs will be responsible. But, I fear that some will go nuts, and instead of hearing about school shootings, we will hear about nuts and fruitcakes who will cause harm in acts of revenge. So far, in the last 15 or 20 years, as people are flocking out of the JW religion, this has not happened. And I am very pleased that ex-JWs are acting so responsibly. - Simply Amazing

21

Kingdom Hall thinning out?

by OrangeBlossom in

jw
friends

i was thinking about the post about japan closing about 300 congregations in the past 3 years.

i know that the hall i occasionally go to is usually less than half full compared to a few years ago.

my mom says that the elders in her hall are trying to come up with ways to get more to attend as attendance is really bad.

Amazing

Oregon has the highest ratio of JW to the population. Many JWs over the last 10 to 15 years have moved to Oregon. Economy is good and the area is like paradise ... kind of a taste of the New System in pre-Armageddon thinking. Of any state, Oregon had about the best growth rate for JWs and meeting attendance.

Not long after I left the Big-O the attendance in my old congregation started to dwindle. Others who have left the organization in that state report similar results. I have heard some recent reports that my old congregation is about half the size it was when I left. They are mostly losing the teenagers as they become adults. I suspect that it is going to get worse. I wonder of the GB will stay with their ship as it sinks, like the good captians they are? - Amazing

8

Is Carbon-14 outdated or flawed?

by Amazing in

jw
friends

it was asked below if c-14 dating is an outdated technology.

not to my knowledge.

c-14 is viable for former living organisms that have been dead less than 60,000 years.

Amazing

Hi 6 of 9: Yes, other dating methods and isotopes can be used. In my earlier post I mention Potassium-40 as another example. But its half life is so long, that it is best for long term objects in the hundreds of millions of years.

Once an organism dies, it cannot take in any more C-14, but rather, the C-14 decays at a precise known half-life rate of 5700 years. I recall the Watch Tower Society citing some reference years ago about nearby dead organisms contaminating subject samples. But, I find this hard to accept, because it is not like C-14 jumps ship from one dead organism to another. But, if there was any such affects, it would be surface only. Various samples can be taken from a subject inside bones and from head to toe.

As for ions from other isotopes from nuclear test fallout, I believe that they would have little affect on C-14. The isotopes from nuke bombs are different molecules with different half lives. And, these isotopes can be detected for what they are. It is not like as though isotope decay looks all the same. Each element can be detected for what it is using various methods. So, I just don't see C-14 being flawed. I am not sure why age determinations have varied in some cases. But, all the age statements I have seen for Kennewick Man have been the same ... 9,800 years and change. LOL He clearly predates any global flood time frame, and also predates any Bible chronology all the way past Adam and Eve by about 4,000 years.

So, either the laws of physics have changed a lot since the days of CT Russell, or it might be that the Watch Tower religion is a bit mistaken in its ideas. - Simply Amazing

8

Is Carbon-14 outdated or flawed?

by Amazing in

jw
friends

it was asked below if c-14 dating is an outdated technology.

not to my knowledge.

c-14 is viable for former living organisms that have been dead less than 60,000 years.

Amazing

It was asked below if C-14 dating is an outdated technology. Not to my knowledge. C-14 is viable for former living organisms that have been dead less than 60,000 years. For older dead organisms, other isotopes are employed. Also, because technology has grown, other methods are used to verify dating. If the object being dated was not a living organism, then other methods are used.

Also, someone asked if above-ground nuclear testing done after 1945 miht flaw dating results in the future. I don't see why it should. Nuclear bombs emit various radiation, such as gama and x-ray which are energy fields and do not leave any particles. Such bombs will emit large amounts of alpha (proton) and beta (electron) partcles. But these are components of atoms, and not carbon molecules. Most of the molecules are from plutonium, hydrogen, helium, etc. Also, the human body, as with other living organisms, maintain a constant ratio of Carbon-14 and Carbon-12. The body passes C-14, but then take in more, and maintains the ratio. When a body dies, the C-14 levels start to decay. But, I have no knowledge that such decay of C-14 would be altered by any radioactivity present from past above-ground nuclear tests. - Simply Amazing

2

Chimps & Evolution

by Amazing in

jw
friends

hi everyone: below i discussed carbon-14 dating and its accuracy in showing how homo sapiens is much older than what groups like the watch tower society believe and teach.. here are some fascinating facts about one of our 'cousins' on the evolutionary scale.

this is fairly short and fun to read.

i have added some comments in brackets [ ... ]:.

Amazing

Hi Everyone: Below I discussed Carbon-14 dating and its accuracy in showing how Homo Sapiens is much older than what groups like the Watch Tower Society believe and teach.

Here are some fascinating facts about one of our 'cousins' on the evolutionary scale. This is fairly short and fun to read. I have added some comments in brackets [ ... ]:

"Chimpanzees are NOT monkeys. The chimpanzee is humankind's closest living relative and a member of the great ape family, which also includes gorillas and orangutans. Chimpanzees and humans are "sibling species" -- two species that are virtually identical in their genetic makeup. Chimps share 98.4% of human DNA.

"Wild chimpanzees are indigenous only to Africa, can have a life-span of more than 50 years, and weigh up to 200 pounds. Note: Chimpanzees have demonstrated cooperative problem-solving, the representational use of numbers, and the ability to comprehend and use language, including proper syntax!

"As with humans, the mother-infant bond among chimpanzees is extremely close. The chimpanzee mother nurses her infant for four to five years. [The same as ancient human women have done, such as Israelite mothers.] The growing chimpanzee child then spends a prolonged childhood, until age ten or eleven, living with his or her family.

"Wild chimpanzees make and use a variety of tools for gathering and preparing food. For example, the chimpanzees of West Africa practice a stone tool culture. Their hammers and anvils, used to crack hard nuts, are similar to the tools of our own hominid ancestors!

"Chimpanzees seek out and use certain plants medicinally, to treat symptoms of various illnesses. Scientists following chimpanzees in the rainforest have been led to a variety of formerly unknown plant species that have pharmaceutical uses ranging from antibiotics to antiviral agents." [Source: http://www.cwu.edu/~cwuchci/kinfaq.html]

Fascinating ... perhaps more of the proverbial 'missing link' than fundys like to believe! - Simply Amazing

22

Carbon-14 Dating

by Amazing in

jw
friends

hello all: in discussing evolution, creation, and bible chronology we will at some point pass through various dating methods that challenge religious beliefs, especially that of the watch tower religion.. some years ago the watch tower society published material (i forget the actual reference) that challenged carbob-14 dating as flawed and prone to error, especially when dating fossils.

the wts cited some sources that dealt with sample contamination that may cause errors in reading half-life of carbon-14.. i wish i could find the article again, because it was published when i was still working in nuclear engineering.

i recall feeling that the wts was stretching the claims to cover the understanding of bible chronology regarding the age of homo sapiens being about 4,026 years.

Amazing

Hello All: In discussing evolution, creation, and Bible Chronology we will at some point pass through various dating methods that challenge religious beliefs, especially that of the Watch Tower religion.

Some years ago the Watch Tower Society published material (i forget the actual reference) that challenged Carbob-14 dating as flawed and prone to error, especially when dating fossils. The WTS cited some sources that dealt with sample contamination that may cause errors in reading half-life of Carbon-14.

I wish I could find the article again, because it was published when I was still working in nuclear engineering. I recall feeling that the WTS was stretching the claims to cover the understanding of Bible Chronology regarding the age of Homo Sapiens being about 4,026 years. While some marginal errors can exist, the margin is generally too small to make any real difference, and with the use of cross-verification test using other isotopes, the age of a fossil can readily be determined with a high degree of accuracy.

Living organisms contain a constant ratio of carbon-14. And as the organism passes waste and other tissue, it will lose some carbon-14, but it is replaced through food intake, and the constant ratio is maintained. When living organisms die, they stop taking in new carbon.

At the time of death, the ratio of carbon-12 to carbon-14 is the same as every other living organism. Carbon-14, however, begins to decay and is not replaced. Carbon-14 decay with a half-life of 5,700 years. By the time 57,000 pass there is only 1/1024th of Carbon-14 remaining, or put another way, 99.99% of the Carbon-14 has decayed. That is why Carbon-14 dating is better measured in less than 60,000 years after the death of an organism.

On the other hand, carbon-12 remains constant in sample taken from organisms. The ratio of carbon-12 to carbon-14 taken from a deceased organism can be compared to the ratio in a living organism. From this the age of a formerly living organism can be precisely determined. Carbon-14 dating is a very accurate method and any challenge put forth by the Watch Tower Society has little merit.

A common formula to calculate the age of a dead organism by using the carbon-14 dating method is:

t = [ ln (Nf/No) / (-0.693) ] x t1/2

where:

"ln" natural logarithm
"Nf/No" percent of carbon-14 compared between a dead vs living organism
"t1/2" is the half-life of carbon-14 (5,700 years).

Comparing a fossil that has 10 percent carbon-14 compared to live organisms, the formula would work as follows:

t = [ ln (0.10) / (-0.693) ] x 5,700 years
t = [ (-2.303) / (-0.693) ] x 5,700 years
t = [ 3.323 ] x 5,700 years
t = 18,940 years old

Radioactive isotope decay rates do not vary from their known half-lives, and provide an excellent way to make age determinations. Another excellent isotope is Potassium-40 which is also an element naturally found in your body. Its half-life is 1.3 billion years. So when an object is suspected or known to be older than 60,000 years, then Potassium-40 becomes very useful for dating extremely old dead organisms.

Verification methods also help any age determinations made from a Carbon-14 test. An example would include Uranium-235 (U-235) with a half-life of 704 million years. There are other isotopes that can also be used, such as U-238, Thorium-232 and Rubidium-87. In addition to dating dead organisms, various radioisotopes can be used in dating geological samples with a high degree of accuracy.

Therefore, Homo Sapiens is much older than suggested by the WTS use of Bible chronology. The remains of an ancient indian found near Richland, Washington called "Kennewick Man" named after a nearby city to Richland, shows the person lived about 10,000 years ago, used tools weapons, and could not possibly fit the beliefs of the Watch Tower religion. Kennewick Man was determined to die from an arrow wound, bleeding and exposure.

If the WTS tries to refute the age determination with respect to Kennewick Man, the only argument they might make would be to allege that radioactive contamination present in the Columbia River (where Kennewick Man's remains were found) may have altered the Carbon-14 readings. I can just visualize the WTS trying to make such a fantasy argument in the Awake!

Hope the above helps. - Simply Amazing

9

Checking In

by Amazing in

jw
friends

hello everyone: i have been away for a while from various forums.

i saw farkel's recommendation to check out this site at jwd.

so, here i am.. the issues surrounding pedophiles is taking on momentum, and i just recently learned that my son-in-law's dad (a jw) was arrested for molesting a minor (not a jw).

Amazing

Hey 7of9: Thanks for your post. My articles about this were revised somewhat (edited for grammar, spelling, etc.) and posted on Freeminds.org. It is located in the "Hot Topics" menu with 'stars or sunbursts' bullets beside each topic. The title is: "Letting your kids make their own decision". When you click on the bullet the article will appear with the original title: "How I helped my Family Leave Jehovah's Witnesses". At the end of the article I also wrote some supplementary examples on talking with our children about this. Let me know if you find it. If not, I will post a copy to this board. Thanks. - Simply Amazing

9

Checking In

by Amazing in

jw
friends

hello everyone: i have been away for a while from various forums.

i saw farkel's recommendation to check out this site at jwd.

so, here i am.. the issues surrounding pedophiles is taking on momentum, and i just recently learned that my son-in-law's dad (a jw) was arrested for molesting a minor (not a jw).

Amazing

Hello Everyone: I have been away for a while from various forums. I saw Farkel's recommendation to check out this site at JWD. So, here I am.

The issues surrounding pedophiles is taking on momentum, and I just recently learned that my son-in-law's dad (a JW) was arrested for molesting a minor (not a JW). So, this has captured some additional attention. I will relate more as I get more details. We are actively looking into whether the perpetrator has had a career of molestation, what the Elders knew and when they knew it, and if he has messed with my grandchildren. What I do know for sure is that the Elders know about the situation, but refuse to warn the congregation until the perpertrator is convicted, AND it gets into the newspapers. Otherwise, they have decided to keep the matter 'confidential.'

Good to see so many I know from other forums, and hope to check in a little more often. - Simply Amazing