ZEP: Your assertion that the Bible is bunk is nothing more than that, an assertion. Perhaps you could demonstrate the evidence you have for this. - Amazing
PS: I will offer an honest assertion of my own. The Bible is kind of like Swiss Cheese. It does have holes in it, but it also has solid parts that are very good.
a significant number of former jehovah's witnesses come out of the watchtower still believing the bible and considering themselves christians.
most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship.
they seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.. what is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism?
Hi Ros: Some above have suggested logic as the basis for x-jws to become atheists. I am not sure that pure logic is the reason in and of itself. On the surface, logic should cause one to conclude that the complex universe could as easily be designed as not, and that a wait and see attitude would be more logical.
I think the issue is one of distrust and a willingness to question everything. The distrust seems to have its birth upoin leaving JWs, because one sees that so many things have been twisted, contorted, and even lied about by religious men in leadership. As a person begins to examine other religions, the Bible, ancient cultures, and what various professional critiques have discovered about these basic foundation stones upon which Christianity is built, then the distrust emerges and grows into total distrust of almost anything religious.
Upon using science to further the evaluation, serious questons begin to form, and this is where a certain level of logic comes into play as a tool. For example, some good issues are raised with the observation that viruses exist, and are observed to evolve. If the world was a designed and created product of a wise and loving God, then why do these basic lifeforms evolve and harm all living things?
Another example is that of Adam and Eve, their sin, and the impact upon the rest of humanity. God was holding all the cards, made all the rules, and had the power to deal with any situation any way he wants. Atheists and Agnostics find it difficult to believe that God would 'booby-trap' Adam and Eve such that when they eat a peice of silly fruit, that future generations of humans for thousands of years would be born in sickness and death, with a bent toward sinning. How can sin be charged against people who were born with that tendancy? How can God hold people accountable for sin when it was his own design that forced them to sin? These are just a sample of the types of questions that seem to not have any satisfactory answers.
FInally, science leads one to demand reasonable level of proof, not that faith would be totally dissolved, but at least have some level of proof that what we know of God is not merely a product of human invention, being refined with layers and layers of better plausibilities as the centuries advance in science. So far, most any argument advanced in favor of God's existence is based on human conjecture and mere claims that holy books, such as the Bible, is or contains inspiration from God. No real evidence exist that this is not purely human contrivance. So, the skeptical individual who is Agnostic or Atheist learns that anything claiming to originate with God can more than likely be shown to as easily originate with creative human invention.
A good example is prayer. Not one person on this earth can demonstrate that when they pray, God is there lkistening. No one can demonstrate that God talks to them and converses in any real substantive relationship. Claims that prayers are answered as evidence of God can only be made by those who feel that prayers were answered. What about the millions of people who pray for many of the same things and get no answer? The claim is made that God must have said no to them. But, really, it can as easily be that by chance, some people got what they wanted and most people did not, because the law of large numbers and averages is that some people will realize what they want, and most will not. Yet, in all this, the honest person has to admit that they have no real idea whether God was there listening, said yes, or no to them, or that he is not there at all, and the events are then merely interpreted to mean what they think God must have intended for them.
I think the questions you you might now want to ask is What basis do those ex-JWs who retain faith have for continued belief in God? On what rational, logical, or scientific basis do they have to believe in a god? What gives them reason for faith? From an atheist point of view, religious people in today's advanced level of technical and mental evolution, appear to be abuse victims. That is, God keeps ignoring religious people and offering no proof to fulfill their faith, and yet religious people keep coming back for more, even when they are sick and say, dying of cancer or some other loathsome disease. This might be comparable to a women who keeps going back to an abusive husband who says he loves her, and yet he keeps ignoring her needs, and allows outsiders to harm her, while he sits and watches, having the power to protect her, but does nothing. Does this not make God appear to be more of a ficticious person, an invention of wishful thinking?
These are the questions religious people need to answer with more than well contrived plausibilities. Religous people need to provide some solid basic for faith. Faith is fine in and of itself, but must be anchored in something solid. As Paul put it, faith is the evidence demonstration of realities though not beheld. As a person of science, I have never seen electricity, but as an electrical engineer and researcher, I have seen the evident demonstration of its reality, the law combined with the theory, such that I have full faith in the existence of electricity, and can demonstrate it to others.
This, Ros, is an example of what atheists and Agnostics need, especially those of the scientific variety, in order to develop an honest and truthful response to the possibility of God's existence. Then, faith may develop, but it must be accompanied by trust. Atheists and Agnostics find it hard to trust the God of the Bible who comes across as a bipolar schizoid, an angry jealous God who zaps them with snakes, wandering in the dessert for 40 years, and all kinds of wars, etc. and then when Jesus arrives, God seems like the new improved Mr. Nice Guy who never meant to harm anyone. Even them, God retains the desire to wipe out unbelievers at Armageddon by popping their eyes out, birds eating their flesh, and in some churches, these people then go to hell and burn for eternity while the Devil stabs them with a pitch fork.
We as Christians have got to completely and honestly, with total openmindedness revisist our entire basis for belief in, faith in, and all claims about God, and see what it is that we can truthfully demonstrate with evidence, even if certain realities cannot be beheld ... much like demonstrating the existence and function of electricity while people still cannot see electricity. We need to do this, not with plausible comparative illustrations, but with rock solid and concrete evidenciary demonstration that proves the God's existence is more than human fantasy and wishful thinking.
Amazing
the great depression had more to do with shaping the character and defining the last century than any other event, except the great wars that caused and followed the depression.
the structure of the financial system though has radically changed since that time, in that it is many times larger, global in fact, and it is much more fragile and complex, in that it reacts nearly instantaneously to various factors.
the average person is now much more dependent upon and indebted to the system as well.
Hi Yadirf / Friday: You said,
You may as well forget it, Amazing, there's no life "out there" other than the angels and God himself.
I think to conclude that among the billions of stars and planets, and galaxies, that we are the only life other than God and the Angels is a bit arrogant and shortsighted.
Can I prove that there are other material 3rd dimension carbon-based biological species out there? No, I cannot prove it. I cannot disprove it either. It does not make sense, however, for these billions of stars with planets and billions of galaxies to be floating around lifeless and void of intelligent species.
But, then, humans once thought that the world was a flat disc and the center of the universe. They were finally forced to recognize that civilizations existed in other parts of a planet that was a globe and not the center of the universe. This is humbling, and I am betting that we are in for more humbling as we travel more and more into space. - Amazing
there has been some discussion in the past on whether people became legal members of the watchtower society or not when they got baptised and whether this was made clear to them.
the wt argues that you are or are not a legal member as it suits them.. here is a thought.... on their website's privacy statement at http://www.watchtower.org/contact/privacy.htm (linked from the 'request contact' form) they say:.
will the watchtower society disclose the information it collects to outside parties?.
Hi Simon: The WTS represented to us when I was baptized at the Oakland, California convention in 1970, that we were not members in any organization, that mo membership roles are maintained, and that we are only citizens of God's heavenly kingdom.
They also take this position with respect to the Watch Tower corporations, because, in fact only a few hundred are actual members who vote on corporate matters. I believe that the Pennsylvania corporation have 500 share holders. If we became members at baptism, then we would hold legal rights in those corporations.
This also cuts the other way too. If we are not members of any organization, and no membership roles are maintained as represented to us by the legal memebrs of the Watch Tower Society, and we were bapitzed BEFORE they changed the baptism vows in 1985, then they have no legal basis on which to DF or DA any of us. So, since I was never a legal member, nor was baptized with the understanding that I was accoutnable to any church or organization, then I have never really been a JW, and any action they may have taken toward me is not legal or recognized. - Amazing
*** g94 11/8 20 have i committed the unforgivable sin?
masturbation is an unclean habit.
(2 corinthians 7:1) however, the bible does not class it with serious sins such as fornication.
A good study into the exegesis of Paul's letter to the Hebrews reveals that it is impossible to commit the unforgivable sin. You can illustrate it this way:
If a person could jump off of the planet, they would die in space. But, it is not possible to jump off of the planet, at least not under one's own power. So, in the same way, once you are an adopted child of God, you cannot turn your back on God. The ending chapter of Romans, Ch 8 shows that it is impossible for anyone (including oneself) to be taken out of God's hand. No person, no angel, no power in heaven or earth, no governemnt, no authority, no organization can take you away from God. Any threat by a religious organization which even suggests that you could be taken away from God, such as the 'doubt' the WTS creates, is not from God, but from Satan. The WTS is a liar organization that totally and 1005 misrepresents God and Christ. - Amazing
i thought the box on page 152 of the creator book was interesting.. (the chapter is titled "a great teacher shows us the creator more clearly") the lesson was dealing with the sermon on the mount and the society says "here are some highlights that we can reap from this greatest sermon:".
seven points were mentioned, among them were "how to be happy, how to cope with anxiety..." and they list the chapter and verse from the sermon to go along.. the one point that caught my eye was "how to recognize religious fraud" and the scriptures for that point were matt.
and matt.7:15-23 which warns us about false prophets.
Hi Moejo: The Society applies the verses in Matt about false prophets to Christendom in particular. They place a different view on the term Prophet. A Prophet technically does not "always" speak about or fortell future events. A Prophet may speak Divine messages mean for the direction and edification of the current generation. Moses, for example, when he delivered the 10 Commandments was not speaking of the future, but providing the Law of God in a capacity as Prophet. Therefore, the WTS applies this broad view of the title Prophet to Christendom's misguidance of her members with respect to teaching falsly the things of God.
What the Watch Tower religion fails to notice, however, is that they are even more guilty of being a false Prophet because in addition to their failed predictions of the future, they also misguide people and claim to be God's sole channel of truth by which he spirit-directs their organization to provide God's timely progressive light to the whole world of humankind. In this regard, they have proved to be a very poor guide, lacking any spirit-direction, and thus the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, aka Jehovah's Witnesses as led by their Governing Body and ficticious Faithful & Discreet Slave Class are False Prophets par Excellence!
Amazing
i officially quit all spiritual functions with the jw's almost 5 years ago,at the time i was a ms, my wife and kids are still very active however i have never been announced as deleted are anything.
dosen't there have to be an accounting of my inactivity?.
any thoughts!
HI Big Jim: This all depends on the way the Elders view you. They may have forgotten about you. Or, if they are moderate in their dealings, they may have decided that since you've been out 5 years, there is no point in doing anything, unless, or course you become public in your views, that is, any views not in harmony with WTS policy. They took 3 years to come after me, but as soon as it was obvious I was more vocal, they trumpted up charges to force my DA. So, you must be doing a good job of keeping a low profile. If not, then either the Elders secretly agree with you, or have not noticed you expressing disagreements. - Amazing
*** g94 11/8 20 have i committed the unforgivable sin?
masturbation is an unclean habit.
(2 corinthians 7:1) however, the bible does not class it with serious sins such as fornication.
We had a Circuit Overseer give a talk in the early 1990s, I think about 1991, wherein he tied together a long string of development such that he was able to turn masturbation into an act of loose conduct whereby a person who practiced, that is, did it more than once after being counseled about it, could be disfellowshipped for it. I am trying to recall his name. He looked like Nikita Kruchev, Premier of the former Soviet Union. I wondered if he was floating a WTS 'trial baloon' to see how this notion would be accepted, or if he was speking from actual WTS policy, or if was was just goofy out on his own thing. - Amazing
the great depression had more to do with shaping the character and defining the last century than any other event, except the great wars that caused and followed the depression.
the structure of the financial system though has radically changed since that time, in that it is many times larger, global in fact, and it is much more fragile and complex, in that it reacts nearly instantaneously to various factors.
the average person is now much more dependent upon and indebted to the system as well.
Hi Yadirf or is I invert your name it is FRIDAY! Yes, good old Friday from H20.
I am most familiar with Bible prophecy, the WTS spin on this as well as several other religious spinners. Nevertheless, I will address your comments:
You said,
The Bible indicates that the world’s governmental system is in for a crash … a world-wide collapse.
The Bible also says that there was a Flood which many religions, including the WTS incorporated believes to be a literal worldwide flood. Yet, the scientific evidence shows otherwise. In addtion, the WTS has made many prophecies based on thier own speculative spin on the Bible, ALL of which has failed to some true ... therefore, I have little confidence on the claim that the world's governments are in for a crash ... at least not in the way proposed by WTS and others.
You continued,
And just how is such a World Government to be brought about? The Bible shows that it will come about as a result of the majority of today’s governments being willing to sacrifice their individual sovereignties and to pay allegiance to a centralized World Government.
In principle, I am against central government of anykind, including, but not limited to centralized religions, central civil governments, and anything that would rule the planet with absolute power such as the kingdom as proposed by the Jehovah's Witness religion. Nevertheless, as the human species reaches out into space travel, it will be simply a matter of time before we contact races and species from other planets, albeit, a long way off in the future. However, by learning to work together under a loose confederation aka the UN, or similar world body where treaties, trade, finance, and other cooperative laws are needed, then so be it. This will prepare us for future operations to meet our planetary needs for the present, and prepare us in the event we do contact extraterresterial civilizations.
You continued,
Yes, that’s the price the nations figure they will have to pay in order to guarantee that a world-wide collapse such as they will have experienced for the first time in history never happens again.
The nations have had worldwide collapses before. If you read some good economic history you will find that the Great Depression of the 1870s affected other nations as well. The Great Depression of the 1930s was a repeat, though somewhat different. I have no doubt that we will have more serious economic downturns as time progresses, but each will have its own unique dynamics and lessons to be learned.
You continued,
Insofar as the few nations (pictured by the three horns that were made to fall; see Daniel 7:20) that will protest the proposition of a World Government, these, because they are in the minority, will be forced to comply with the wishes of those nations who as a majority want a World Government.
I am not sure how you arrived at this interpretation, as it sounds different than most of the WTS material I have read over the years. Nevertheless, there is no basis to believe that this will be the outcome. Here are the possibilities, anyone of which may be correct:
1. These ancient prophecies in Danial and Revelation could have already been fulfilled in other ways in the past.
2. These prophecies are allegorical of different kinds of events, such as spiritual fulfillment in peoples individual lives or in the life of the Christian religion.
3. These prophecies are the product of the same mentality that penned the Flood fable, and they have no more meaning in human history than do the strange propheciesd of Nostradamus.
4. These prophecies could have a bearing on future human events, but they will likely be fulfilled in a time and way in which no one really expects or could speculate about.
You continued,
For those with open eyes it will be noticed that the 10 horns in Revelation 13 have diadems on them, while in Revelation those same 10 horns do NOT have their diadems any longer. Yes, the Bible certainly forecasts not only a collapse but an coming World Government (8th King) which is to follow the 7th King that presently reigns. Because we of today live during the very time during which the foretold 7th King has made the scene, it is possible therefore that we may be the very generation that will witness the collapse … and that which will come on its heals, namely a short-lived World Government.
You are not the first nor will you be the last to propose that such prophecies are meant for the generation you live in. People have been applying these prophecies to their respective generations ever since the days of the Apostles. They likewise do the same with the prophecies of Nostradamus ... and so far, ALL have been 100% wrong. pehaps that should tell us that it is pointless to keep repeating the same behavior if it does not produce better results.
This is no different than an alcoholic who drinks each time thinking he can stop before he gets drunk, but then drinks hiimself into a stupor. He keeps repeating the same behavior and gets the same drunken results. He never learns. Likewise, many religious people seem to keep falling into this same trap of prophectic speculations that never come true. Some even die for these beliefs and never realize that they have died for a fraudulant religious system.
Amazing
this is quite tricky, don't go on to the second picture until you are.
sure you know the first........ it's hard, so you'll do well to find four or five differences.. this is a simple psychoanalysis test to measure your memory.
look at the first superman picture.. memorize it and open the second.. without reopening the first try to note each of the differences between the two pictures.. there are at least three.
Yep! No pictures showed up here either. - Amazing
