Posts by Amazing

41

Phrases NOT to say if you are in a judicial committee meeting for apostasy

by BonaFide in

jw
friends

i have only been on a couple of committee's for actual apostasy, and in one the brother never showed, and in the other, the person said they don't want to be a witness.

but in having experience as an elder and a c.o., and in reading this forum, here are my suggestions.. do not say:.

"i don't believe that the faithful and discreet slave is god's channel" - why not?

Amazing

Tuesday ... good ones ... here are some ideas of what not to say ...

Oh, I thought that 'alternative service' meant that I could join the Reserves instead of active duty. Well, at least it's only for four years, then I get to go to college for free so that I can make good money and afford to Regular Pioneer when I graduate in 2013.
No, I would never believe in the Faithful and Discreet Slave, I'm only loyal to the Governing Body and Organization. Seeeee, I have my priorities straight!
I didn't know that Crisis of Conscience was apostate literature ... jeez, no wonder no one at the Kingdom Hall wanted a copy. That is why I had to give out all twenty copies at the door while out in Service last Saturday. Well, I need to make a correction on my time sheet for literature placements ...

9

Give an example of an elected official

by John Doe in

jw
friends

that is not a hypocrite.

to be valid, the official's party opponents must agree with you that said official is not a hypocrite..

Though I strongly disagree with his political positions, (except when he initiated deregulation of the oil and gas industry, trucking, and banks which was good) I think that Jimmy Carter was and is an honest person to his convictions. His work with Habitat for Humanity where he engages in real physical work building homes for the disadvantaged is most admirable ... it shows him to be a person who puts his money and labor where his mouth is.

On the other side of the aisle, I think just as strongly of Ronald Reagan, a man of his convictions who never wavered, and 'did what he had to do' as he would say. We will not see the likes of Reagan for another generation to come.

There are a few Congress people I also admire, such as Sunny Bono (R) (deceased) and Joe Lieberman (D then I). But, most of them I would not give the time of day ... because most get corrupted ... they start out with nice ideals, but have to make too many compromises along the way. This is why I am for term limits in all cases.

I live in Illinois where our Governors are arrested and charged with almost routine schedule ... only one Governor in the last four has not gotten into trouble ...

41

Phrases NOT to say if you are in a judicial committee meeting for apostasy

by BonaFide in

jw
friends

i have only been on a couple of committee's for actual apostasy, and in one the brother never showed, and in the other, the person said they don't want to be a witness.

but in having experience as an elder and a c.o., and in reading this forum, here are my suggestions.. do not say:.

"i don't believe that the faithful and discreet slave is god's channel" - why not?

Amazing

Bonafide,

In 1992, when I left the Watchtower organization, it was much the same as you describe ... one of the first questions is whether I believed that 'this' was God's organization. I used some evasive tactics ... and by 1995, it was the Watchtower legal department in New York that sent me a legal package, and the notice that they had determined that I had Disassociated myself. I was able to evade them a while longer, but I knew that it was over. I never said the 'wrong' phrase ... but I also failed to say the 'right' phrases, though I came close in style to what they wanted to hear ... but it was not enough for them. This is all mentioned in my exit story posted on Freeminds.org (Ex-JWs.net).

Strangely, enough, when I met with the CO, he ended up confiding in me that he did not believe "it" was God's organization, but because he was supposed to get some kind of retirement stipend in addition to some level of Social Security, he was lying low ... but he said that he did not blame me, and were he my age (41 at the time) he would leave too. Maybe you ran across him when you were a CO ... maybe not. But, it was refreshing to hear him have a moment of honesty with me ... and it was kind of validating to get him to confess to me, when I was supposed to be the problem person.

The local Elders were afraid of me for a few reasons, among which when I went to the authorities regarding a molester that they were shielding ... they begged me not to go ... but I did anyway, eventually ... and after that, they were out to find whatever they could to get me out of the organization ... and they finally succeeded ... I gave them enough along the way ... but they walked carefully until the Society told them that they would handle it, and then the local Elders became very bold toward me.

I am glad it is over ... I was able to testify years later for the victims of abuse ... and in a way, I received a level of justice. And now, I only post for a month or so each year just to stay in touch ... because I was finally able to move on to better things, a richer faith, and a meaningful life.

Amazing

10

I knew something was terribly wrong when...

by cognac in

jw
friends

i asked an elder about jcs.

i said that it seems to me if you did something wrong and went to 1 cong - you may get d'fed.

if you move congs and instead go to the elders in the new hall, you may simply get private reproof.

Amazing

Cognac,

You are correct, the outcome should be the same ... it is a serious problem with the JW system of men judging fellow members in this way, and it is entirely un-Biblical. For an account of what can happen between congregations, the following is a true story I reported on JWD which took place when I was an Elder.

A Sin worse than Apostasy!

To read the sickening account - Click Here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/6477/1/JUSTICE-3-Sin-worse-than-Apostasy

66

Myths about the Church - to Coffee

by Amazing in

jw
friends

the following are questions raised by coffee_black that deserve a response:.

opening note: often times we here how rome cherry-picked the bible to suit their doctrine, yet many people, mostly non-catholics demand that only the bible sola scriptura be used as the canon of the faith.

there is a serious inconsistency in such a demand that both worships the bible on one hand and then condemns the church which compiled that very same book on the other hand; the very same church, and the only church which formally declared the bible is inspired 800 years after jesus christ!.

Amazing

I am preparing a response on a new thread called "Response to Coffee Black." It will also include specific responses to "Yesidid," "Mouthy," "Satanus," and "Noitsjust me." I am not avoiding anyone else, but I figure if I miss some point or someone's question/comment, I will be reminded. I am just trying to get this going again.

Amazing

15

How Would You/Do You Help JWs Think About Possibly Getting Out?

by minimus in

jw
friends

if you sensed that a jw might be unhappy, how might you get think thinking??

?.

Amazing

For about the last nine years, since I have been on line in discussion forums, I have received many email and PMs, a few every week, sometimes every day in short bursts, that have read my exit story, and seek advice on what to do next. I usually send them my article that discusses how I helped my family out of the Watchtower organization. It is hosted on Freeminds.org. I also suggest ideas to fit their specific situation.

Some simply want to discuss one or two concerns or doctrines, and how I reconciled these as an ex-JW. The most common questions are about the Trinity or attending a traditional Church. Some just need someone to listen as they work out their own thoughts. Some want to vent ... and for some strange reason, some will talk to me like I am a JW Elder or CO, and treat me as though I still agree with the organization ... it is as if they want to use me to burn the Watchtower in effigy. But, in the end, they calm down, and finally think through things. On a few ocassions, some folks are just mean and act like asses, and so I have to block them from emailing me.

I have slowed down a lot, not because I am tired, but simply because I have a life to live, and I need my time back. But, those that email me after reading my exit story, I still respond and provide some framework for them to get further help.

4

The Anointed "Touch" Given WT Publications

by compound complex in

jw
friends

who actually supplies the "food"?.

there were, of course, articles that did come through from "anointed" brothers in different countries.

[footnote #37: in almost all cases the article came because president knorr had sent an assignment to the person to write it.

Amazing

The Watchtower writers are all blithering, fraudulent, uneducated, morons ... what else can we really say? I was fascinated when a person of the "Other Sheep" asked me if I received any inspiration that I passed along to the Society ... she was the mother of the person who helped me become a JW ... I was an Elder and of the "Anointed." I said, "No. That is not how it works in the organization." She thanked me and walked away ... leaving me to realize that something seriously was wrong with the entire JW theology ... and now, all I can say it that it is a crock of crap. I am glad that I am out, and moving on with life as it really is.

3

Has the Elder Arrangement caused class distinction?

by The Berean in

jw
friends

17. .

Amazing

The Elder arrangement is not about class distinction, as it is Biblical. In most churches, any male may become an Elder (Presbyter, Priest). By current western standards, it is discriminatory against women. The role of women in most Christian churches was limited until the late 20th century. In Catholicism and Orthodoxy, the role of women is just as high, if not higher than men. In Catholic teaching, while the priesthood is a male role, it is not an act of discrimination against women, because women have equal and higher roles ... such as being Saints or, e.g. The Blessed Virgin Mary is the Mother of God and holds the highest position in heaven that any human could ever have. No man can ever compete with that role. To a number of liberal Christians, who are non-Catholics, it still will be alleged as discrimination. My daughter, for example, is trying to become a Methodist Minister ... she and I have had go-rounds on this topic ... but she now at least understands where Catholics are coming from on this issue. She is more tolerant than others I know.

66

Myths about the Church - to Coffee

by Amazing in

jw
friends

the following are questions raised by coffee_black that deserve a response:.

opening note: often times we here how rome cherry-picked the bible to suit their doctrine, yet many people, mostly non-catholics demand that only the bible sola scriptura be used as the canon of the faith.

there is a serious inconsistency in such a demand that both worships the bible on one hand and then condemns the church which compiled that very same book on the other hand; the very same church, and the only church which formally declared the bible is inspired 800 years after jesus christ!.

Amazing

GromitSK,

In principle you have a point. The basic Christian has faith in what has been taught and written about Jesus Christ by those who knew him personally, and those who knew the disciples who passed on the faith ... faith is the key ... yet, there is also authenticated history which scholars have confirmed, that Jesus existed, and that he said and did the things claimed. There is nothing in secular writing to refute or expose Christ as a fraud. I am not sure of the 'filtering' you mention, as very ancient manuscripts have surfaced which confirm that later versions have exhibited little or no change. Also, Catholic and Orthodox traditions have not changed in nearly 2,000 years. One can even confirm this through a study of art history, which provides additional supporting evidence.

All that said ... it still boils down to faith ... for even if all of what Jesus and the Apostles said and did are recorded accurately and passed on with little or no changes ... it sill requires faith to accept that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came down from heaven to die for us, be resurrected, proving he is who he said he is, and then building his Church from heaven. Jesus said to the Apostle Thomas that it would be a matter of faith once he left the earth, as no one would be able to physically test him as did Thomas.

66

Myths about the Church - to Coffee

by Amazing in

jw
friends

the following are questions raised by coffee_black that deserve a response:.

opening note: often times we here how rome cherry-picked the bible to suit their doctrine, yet many people, mostly non-catholics demand that only the bible sola scriptura be used as the canon of the faith.

there is a serious inconsistency in such a demand that both worships the bible on one hand and then condemns the church which compiled that very same book on the other hand; the very same church, and the only church which formally declared the bible is inspired 800 years after jesus christ!.

Amazing

Hello All,

I just got my PC back on line in my new location. I had PC and Router problems ... but finally got them solved.

It will take a while to respond to you all ... and the various points you have presented ... perhaps I will break this up to each person who has posted on issues, concerns, or questions.

In general, there is a running theme that because of the sins of people in the Church, including its leaders, that this means Catholicism is not true, or true to the Gospel. I will deal with each one in more detail ... but for this general concern ...

One can find the worst evil among ALL Christian denominations and non-denominations, starting with the very first Christians, Apostles included. Judas betrayed Christ, after he was an Apostle. Peter denied Christ. Paul was a jerk, John and James were zealous firebrand idiots, Matthew was, and continued to be a Tax collector ... which in those days was not a nice trade. Any Jew who listened to Judas, might have gotten the impression that Jesus was a mere cult leader. Mary Magdalene was a whore. And Jesus was often accused of hanging out with the worst of humanity. And, today, one can find the same and worst in all denominations ... so, what is the point?

The point is, if you have faith in Jesus, you do so in spite of the evil and sin among Christians. The Church is made up of sinful people - the vast majority of which have not been evil. The problem confronting ex-JWs is the claim of the Watchtower that pure true religion would clean out the evil, and by allowing evil to exist, such a religion is false. Ex-JWs still what would be the truth by what they learned in the Watchtower, even though they have rejected the Watchtower Society. When I look at the Catholic Church, I do not look at the sinful people, but rather, at the fact that she has been protected from error on matters of faith and morals in spite of the evil that has surfaced. When I say protected, I am not speaking of the conduct of some, but of the teaching of the Church. And, it is the only denomination along with the Orthodox, that have any historical chance of claiming to be the Church Jesus said he would build and protect through the ages. The Watchtower Society has not been protected from error.

If those of you who feel that the Catholic Church must be abandoned because of sins that some of her people have committed throughout history, then I submit to you that you should therefore abandon Christ because of the sins of ALL Christians through all of Christian history. Is that the standard you use to judge Catholicism, and therefore, do you defend the same standard to judge being a Christian of any type?

I will finish responding in a day or two, as I am trying to catch up on work and unpacking.