Myths about the Church - to Coffee

by Amazing 66 Replies latest jw friends

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    The following are questions raised by Coffee_Black that deserve a response:

    Opening note: Often times we here how Rome “Cherry-picked” the Bible to suit their doctrine, yet many people, mostly non-Catholics demand that only the Bible “sola scriptura’ be used as the canon of the faith. There is a serious inconsistency in such a demand that both worships the Bible on one hand and then condemns the Church which compiled that very same book on the other hand; the very same Church, and the only Church which formally declared the Bible is inspired 800 years after Jesus Christ!

    1. Why name Christian Churches after anyone but Christ?

    Catholics have not named the Church after anyone but Christ. The word 'Catholic' is primarily a functional term meaning 'universal' or all-inclusive. Catholics call themselves Christian. The term Christian began being used near Antioch, where the term 'catholic' also began. The first recorded instance of using the noun-title “The Catholic Church” was by Ignatius of Antioch. He was a student of the Apostle John, a friend of the Apostle Paul, and the one groomed to be Bishop of Antioch by the Apostle Peter. He is among the earliest Church writers ... and is considered among the most authentic. The term Catholic stuck in the Western Roman Empire, whereas the term Orthodox stuck in the Eastern Roman Empire. The Church does not need a 'name.’ It is simply a function of history, and a tradition at least commenced by one of the most credible Christians outside the Apostles.

    2. What is the Biblical basis for praying to Mary or saints?

    The question presupposes that the Bible is a book of canon law that must be adhered to against all other claims ... a book that was allegedly 'cherry-picked' by the Roman Catholic Church. The Bible is not, nor ever was "The" standard for Christians for the first 1600 years after Christ. It is a post-Renaissance notion dubbed, 'sola scriptura' which in itself has absolutely no Biblical basis. What is the Biblical basis of requiring a Biblical basis? It is nothing more than a nice sounding phrase that some Christians parrot.

    Prayer to Mary and the Saints: Praying in ancient times was not reserved to God alone. One could pray to a judge ... and in fact, in American courts today, in many jurisdictions, documents appealing to the court use the term 'pray' or ‘pray to the court.’ Praying is a process of appeal ... and since Catholics believe that the Apostles and early Christians and others called Saints are alive in heaven, we can ‘appeal’ to them just as we would to anyone here on earth. If I come onto this board and ask for prayer for me, or a situation, I am 'praying' in the Biblical sense to the participants of JWN. It is groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Watchtower, and other post-renaissance groups who created this prohibition, and then imposed the so-called 'Biblical' standard ... a standard that has no basis in Christianity prior to the first 1600 years of the Christian faith.

    3 (a) What is the Biblical basis for the costumes and the formality?

    The costumes, as you call them, are sacramental vestments, and are also used in variations outside the Catholic Church among Methodists, Lutherans, Anglicans, and even non-deminational groups. The vestments are taken from early Roman and Greek secular society, and in time underwent various evolutions in the Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, and Roman Catholic. There was further evolution among the first Protestant denominations that emerged after the Renaissance and Rococo periods. The sacramental vestments are for liturgical use only, and have sacred symbolism and meaning. Catholic Priests outside their role at Mass, typically dress like everyone else on the street … and fit in well with the social standards of the cultures in which they live. Christians up until recent times wore their best to Church, often suits (costumes) and semi-formal dresses. One would not want to wear tattered clothing. In recent times, people are less formal ... but the current standard should not cause one to judge what came down to us and evolved through the ages. Here is a good article for a complete history: http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=12014

    3 (b) In my reading of the New Testament I find early Christian gatherings to be much simpler and pretty informal.

    Nothing in the Bible really describes how they dressed, if that is what you mean by informal. They originally gathered in Synagogues, which is formal, and one would assume they wore appropriate dress for the Synagogue. When they were expelled from the Synagogues, they gathered in homes because that is pretty much all they had. Then, in the beginning of the 2nd century, right about 107AD, Ignatius of Antioch, mentioned above, was among the martyrs in the beginning of the general Roman persecution of the early Christians under emperor Trajan (Marcus Ulpius Traianus). So, Christians eventually had to meet in caves, especially in Rome, known as catacombs. What they wore can be surmised from the study of art history. It was not until the 4th century, under Constantine, that Christians were finally given religious freedom, though they were being tolerated in the empire for sometime prior to Constantine. But outside the Roman empire, they were quite free to build churches, which they did do. And in several Holy Sees founded by the Apostles (namely Peter, Paul, Mark, and Andrew) one can find the traditional dress carried on to this day in Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, and Constantinople.

    3 (c) Matt 23:5 talks about the fine garments the scribes and Pharisees wore…doesn’t sound like Jesus approved.

    If your manner of dress is done for inappropriate purposes, then there could be a problem.Matthew 23:5 reads this way: "And all their works they do for to be seen of men. For they make their phylacteries broad, and enlarge their fringes."

    The "Phylacteries"... that is, parchments, on which they wrote the ten commandments, and carried them on their foreheads before their eyes. The Pharisees wore broader than other men; so to seem more zealous for the law. The fringes were the required complimentary decor in blue worn by Jewish men that are on the edge of their clothing, but not the clothing itself. The Pharisees enlarged these too, so as to be more righteous. Nothing in that verse discusses 'dress' as such. But Jesus was dealing with what these men did under the 'Law.' Whereas, Jesus made no such condemnation of the Jewish Priests or High Priest dress used at the temple. Likewise, if a Catholic or Orthodox priest is outside his function as Priest (Presbyter) in Church activity, you would not recognize him. Priests move about in public all the time without notice. The problem was more that the Pharisees were trying to impersonate something they were not.

    3 (d) In fact, I don’t think Jesus himself was too concerned about his own garments…nor does it appear that the apostles were either.

    Please provide supporting historical evidence for this statement. I find nothing either way ... it is a mere assumption as far as I can tell. And, you will have to explain why the Roman Soldiers at his death found Jesus garments worthy of being divided among them, and his robe worthy of gambling to obtain it.

    "Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout. They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did." (John 19:23-24)

    Jesus was not a poor beggar who wore tattered clothing … at least not judging from early Christian tradition, as a carpenter back then, Jesus and his ‘father’ Joseph today would be equivalent to building contractors. And certainly, Roman soldiers, who understood wealth and the value of material things, would not have cast lots (gambled) for Jesus robe, or divided his other garments! Catholic priestly vestments are partly based on Jesus dress, and partly on Jewish High Priests dress … with evolution over time. Their purpose and function has nothing in common with what the Pharisees did. Their being fine garments and vestments used in spiritual functions have no relationship to what Jesus condemned the Pharisees.

    3 (e) What is the Biblical basis for the “Hail Mary” repetitive recitals and the rosary beads?

    Luke 1:27-29:"To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.29 Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

    Today, Catholics say the Hail Mary prayer using the words, “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed are thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.” I do not say the prayer much … but I cannot fault and judge those who do. What words could be more Biblical?

    Hail was a common greeting ... like saying Hello or Hi today, but a more formal salutation, such as saying ‘Greetings.’ And the Angel from God used it with Mary. Mary herself prophesied that all generations would call her blessed. Ignatius of Antioch (mentioned above) referred to Mary as the 'Lady of our new religion.’ There was much honor accorded to Mary among the early Christians ... not much was recorded much in the Bible ... a so-called “cherry-picked” book by Rome ... but in the documentation that is not included by the Church in the Bible and by oral tradition, which the Bible speaks of as being handed down by the Apostles.

    4. Why do you call priests "Father" when Jesus clearly said not to? Matt 23.9

    The verses in context at Matthew 23:6-10: "And they [Pharisees] love the first places at feasts, and the first chairs in the synagogues, 7 And salutations in the market place, and to be called by men, Rabbi. 8 But be not you called Rabbi. For one is your master; and all you are brethren. 9 And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters; for one is your master, Christ.

    At first, this scripture would seem to condemn what Catholics do ... and as such, Catholics should stop doing it. It’s very important never to take a Scripture passage out of context and treat it like it was written in a vacuum — with nothing either before it or after it. First we need to consider the verse’s immediate context, and then consider its wider context (which is the entire Bible).

    The immediate context of this verse from Matthew 23 is Jesus’ dialogue with his disciples concerning the scribes and the Pharisees. The scribes and Pharisees were the religious leaders of the Jews at the time. Many of them, unfortunately, were filled with pride; hence they greatly enjoyed being called by fancy titles like ‘rabbi’ and ‘teacher’ and ‘father’ and ‘master’. Jesus knew this — which is precisely why he criticized them in this scene and encouraged his own disciples to be humble.

    But the real question is: In doing this, did Jesus intend for his words in verse 9 to be understood literally? Or was he speaking in a figurative way? If he did mean them literally, of course, then you’re absolutely correct in your assertion, and we Catholics should stop calling priests ‘Father’ immediately! Likewise, we should not call our male parent ‘father’ either. However, it seems that if Jesus did intend a literal interpretation, then he certainly would have followed his own rule. He wouldn’t have given his disciples (and all of us) a commandment — not to call anyone on earth ‘father’ — that he didn’t intend to keep himself.

    The wider context of this verse (i.e., the rest of the New Testament), what we find is that Jesus did not observe this rule himself! For example, in this very same chapter of Matthew (in verses 30 and 32), Jesus uses the word “father” to refer to men here on earth! Speaking to the scribes and Pharisees in verse 30, our Lord says, ‘And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’ Then, in verse 32, he says, ‘Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.’

    Jesus did the same thing at other times in his ministry: He referred to people on this earth as ‘fathers’. Just read your King James Version and see! And so did the writers of the New Testament! St. John, for example, addresses ‘fathers’ more than once in the second chapter of his first letter (Epistle).

    St. Paul calls Abraham ‘the father of us all’ in chapter 4 of his letter to the Romans. And then, in 1 Corinthians 4, he goes so far as to speak of himself as a father—a spiritual father—to the Corinthian people. Can you imagine? Of course, that makes perfect sense to every Catholic, because St. Paul was a priest! As a priest, he was a spiritual father to all the people in the various churches he founded.

    The bottom line is this: If Jesus intended a literal interpretation to his words, ‘Call no one on earth your father’, and if violating the words of Jesus is a sin, then you’re forced into a position where you have to say that Jesus himself sinned! You also have to say that St. John and St. Paul sinned!

  • BurnTheShips
  • Robdar
    Robdar

    Amazing, your thread is a very good introduction to the Catholic faith. I hope the critical posters in the other thread read it and learn a thing or two.

    BTT

  • jaguarbass
    jaguarbass

    The bible is a book to keep the sheeple confused down and manipulated.

    Man was made by astronauts from Niberu to be the astronauts slaves, workers.

    This is information was written down 10,000 years ago and and pressed into clay by the

    Summerians.

    The bible took much of the summerian text and altered, spin doctored it, to give us

    the book of missinformation the holy bible.

    They gave us the bible as a tool of the Roman empire and emperor Constantine,

    To manipulate and control mankind their slaves.

    Many of the bible books they edited out have truths they have hidden from us,

    thats why they edited them out, like the book of Enoch.

    Its just been in the past 50 years that man has found the Summerian dictionarys and

    began interpreting the text which have been sitting in museums.

    If you want to know where we came from and what the bible is, start out with the "12th planet" by Sitchin.

    Or "The Slave Species of God" by Michael Tellwinger.

    Tellwinger summerizes Zitchins 7 books in a much easier to read format than Sitchin.

    But Sitchin is the one who read and interpretid the text and told the world what they

    say.

    And as usual the world is in full tilt disinformation against Sitchin.

    The truth does not go down good when it comes to crowd control, hearding sheep.

    Basically the church is there to keep sheeples organized into waring units

    So mankind can be thrown into war at a moments notice.

    Thrown into war to control population and spur or cool down the economy.

    Demigods are controlling us from Nibiru.

    We can just live out our lives as slaves and hope we reincarnate or move on to a better existence,

    Thats probably all we can do because we cant turn on religion and got rid of it,

    The masters control the media and they made us to be their slaves, and they arent going

    to roll over and play dead.

    The masters also have many secret societies, the masons etc who are ingrained in society

    to keep the fabric of disinformation and confusion alive and well here on earth.

    The bottom line we will be slaves who are kept in line and at our masters service.

    But if you read these books and find out what time it is, what the score is, what is going on

    here on the 3rd planet from the sun, you may be able to work your way up to a house slave

    from a field slave.

    The people who control us here on earth are not that much different than us, we have their genes,

    and we were made in their image, the bible says they found our women desirable and had

    sex with them.

    The problem is they made us to be slaves.

    And they left us out of their retirement plan.

    They manipulated our dna and took out the parts of eternal or at least much longer life than

    earthlings have.

    If you look at the dna of a worm it is 99% complete if you look at the dna of man 70% or more

    of it is missing.

    That shows we did not evolve here on earth and were genetically enginered to be slaves.

    Having been ex JW's I think everybody here realizes there is no calvary coming to rescue us.

    You can have the truth and deal with it.

    Or put yourself back to sleep in the trance provided by the God Spell, aka the Gospells.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Thanks for blowing up some popular myths. Gonna call you FATHER amazing;)

    S

    Ps, i'm not against the seeking contact of w those who have gone to the other side before us, great ones, such as many of the saints were. However, as a believer in reincarnation, i question whether they remain there for eons to help their adorers. The buddhists have there boddhisatvas, many eastern religious regularly look to their ancestors. Sorry, off what was the the intent of this thread, which was not the arguing of doctrine.

  • coffee_black
    coffee_black

    Ok, here is the first part of my reply. I’m going to take a break and come back shortly to address the rest.

    Regarding Calling a priest “Father” to both Amazing and BTS

    I’ve read BTS’s link as well as Amazing’s comments. I understand the context in which Jesus said those words here, and that he was addressing a specific group of men. Jesus’ message was always however, consistent whoever he was talking to. He did not have different sets of principals depending on who he was addressing. In my opinion he was addressing a human weakness that many others besides the scribes and Pharisees can exhibit…namely wanting to be seen by men as important, prominent, and having titles. In spite of the scholars who have analyzed this passage to mean otherwise…. I personally have no spiritual Father other than God, and will not call a man by that title. I think that is consistent with Galatians 4: 4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. 6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, ] Father." 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir."

    The Father who my spirit calls out to is God.

    I realize He wasn’t talking about calling our biological fathers by that title. When he spoke of "our fathers” in that context, he was speaking of the generations of forefathers. That was not the subject he was speaking about to the Pharisees. I did on occasion call my own by that title…but mostly, I called him Dad. To sum it up, I have only 1 spiritual Father…and one biological father.

    For those who feel comfortable with calling a priest “Father” I’m not criticizing you…. just saying that it doesn’t work for me.

    On Calling a Church by a name other than Christ. To Amazing

    I think you misunderstood my question. I should have been more specific. In the earlier part of my post, I asked why would the Church be called for example: St Catherine’s Catholic Church or St Paul’s, St Peter’s etc?

    I understand the Catholic distinction. In the above name however, the possessive pronoun here implies ownership. That is my concern. If the Mormon church was called for example” The church of Joseph Smith…. Or the jw kingdom halls for example were called Pastor Russell’s kingdom hall or Judge Rutherford’s kingdom hall… maybe that will help you understand my train of thought and my question better.

    Regarding Attire

    I meant no offense in calling the priest’s and others attire costumes. To me a costume is just a word used to describe what someone wears when performing a role other than just everyday life. I don’t have proof that Jesus or his apostles did not wear fine garments. I can’t find much he had to say about dress other than examples like this:

    Mark 12: 38As he taught, Jesus said, "Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted in the marketplaces, 39 and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets.

    Or here:

    Matthew 6: 28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

    One could argue that Jesus garments at the time of His Crucifixion were not his ordinary garb. Where they came from, we don’t know. During all that he endured through the beating and events he suffered leading up to his death, I would think that his own personal garments wouldn’t have survived that. I don’t think they allowed him to pack fresh clothes for his ordeal. Maybe someone lovingly gave them to him…or maybe they were given to mock him…as did the sign over his head said “King of the Jews”.

    We don’t know…

    If you are comfortable with the use of vestments… I’m not criticizing…. For me the emphasis just lies elsewhere.

    Coffee

  • VM44
    VM44

    Very good Amazing. I have a question though.

    When, How and Why did the clerical coller come about? Does it serve any purpose at all other than to indicate one is a priest?

  • beksbks
    beksbks

    "The question presupposes that the Bible is a book of canon law that must be adhered to against all other claims ... a book that was allegedly 'cherry-picked' by the Roman Catholic Church. The Bible is not, nor ever was "The" standard for Christians for the first 1600 years after Christ."

    What is the basis for the church's stand on homosexuality? Masturbation? Birth control?

  • coffee_black
    coffee_black

    second part

    Regarding praying to Mary and the saints as well as repetitive recitals and rosary beads

    I guess the idea of praying to anyone but God is foreign to me.   It doesn’t feel right to me somehow… but that’s just me.  
    As regards the repetitive recitals of Hail Mary and   the Apostolic creed and the Lord’s prayer etc. .. 
    in and of themselves don’t bother me  except the following highlighted sentence that would appear to exclude other Christians.  
    I do not believe that Jesus is exclusive to the Catholic church. 
    I believe he is Savior to all Christians.
     
    We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
     who proceeds from the Father [and the Son].
     With the Father and the Son
      he is worshipped and glorified.
     He has spoken through the Prophets.
    We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
     We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
     We look for the resurrection of the dead,
     and the life of the world to come. AMEN.

    So when I do go to a Catholic church, I don’t say that line.

    From my understanding Catholics have to repeat some or all of these as penance for sins confessed to the priest.

    Correct me if I’m wrong here.

    Where do rosary beads come in? Is that just a way to keep track of how many times you’ve repeated these things?

    I’m not sure what this accomplishes…

    James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed.

    The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

    To me he was saying not to hide our sins from one another, but for our lives to be an open book …to pray for

    and with one another…but I don’t see where that has to be with a priest….just another Christian.

    From the other thread

    I know that all of the books not included in Bible Canon are available. I don’t think it has always been so….

    I think that has been a fairly recent development. Think about this: If you and I were brother and sister and our

    dad died…. What if I came across a box filled with letters and personal mementos belonging to our dad.

    What if I decided that I would give you access to only the ones I thought you should see? How would you view that?

    I would like to hear your thoughts on the Latin Mass, and the headcovering required of women who attend there.

    I commented on the other thread regarding this. I also seem to remember that the Latin Mass was the rule, not

    the exception not too long ago. I seem to remember some controversy over Catholic churches offering Mass in English

    when I was a child. I grew up in Boston, and the Catholic church has been very prominent here for many decades.

    I don’t remember too much about it…I was a dub at the time. But if you read my original post regarding this… I’d appreciate your input.

    Coffee

  • mraimondi
    mraimondi

    what an utterly disgusting OP.

    sorry to offend, but there is nothing redeeming at all about the religion you represent.

    everchanging goalposts at the whim of a select few, population control, oppresive non-natural restrictions.

    yeah, just another cult, man.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit