Fisherman

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Posts by Fisherman

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  51

  Why facts fail to reach the faithful, (even the intelligent ones)

  by done4good in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i posted this on another thread, and decided it deserves its own...thoughts?.

  an unfortunate artifact of evolution is that belief can, and often does trump fact.

  survival is at the core of what belief is about.

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  Fisherman

  Word salad.

  So is Shakespeare to simpletons such as you. And so is the syntax of a programming language to those that do not understand it -but they are not word salad and neither is the language in my illustration that you refer to.
  
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  51

  Why facts fail to reach the faithful, (even the intelligent ones)

  by done4good in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i posted this on another thread, and decided it deserves its own...thoughts?.

  an unfortunate artifact of evolution is that belief can, and often does trump fact.

  survival is at the core of what belief is about.

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  Fisherman

  Not according to Merriam-Webster.

  MW describes faith, it does not challenge the basis, you do.. Your post assumes that all faiths are based on snake oil. But faith simply means (logic) the belief and trust and hope in medicine that does work. And the reason you have faith in it is because you know for a fact that it does work.
  

  Fisherman - Facts do not trump other facts and that is the sophistry of your argument assuming that faith is based on belief (not a talking horse) and if the basis for faith can be invalidate with any new facts whatsoever. ???

  There is enough context in my statement above for you to figure out what I mean. I made some changes to the structure of my sentences before I posted but they did not post through, so let me rephrase what is posted above:

  Facts do not trump other facts. The sophistry of your argument assumes that all faith is based on false belief or premise (not on a talking horse.) And that being the case, you also conclude that the basis for all faiths can be invalidated with evidence. My post intends to illustrate that faith must be based on fact in order for it for it to be defined as faith. Faith in a jackass or in snake oil is not faith because faith must only be based upon proof.

  Every example of persons having faith in the Bible shows the person basing their faith -not on wishful thinking- but on a talking horse. Conclusion: No talking horse, no faith is possible. When faith based on evidence is the case (as it always must be), even new facts that come up, that contradict or seem to contradict exiting facts, do not invalidate the basis for faith, hence, if faith is based on evidence faith is not a fallacy and neither is it subject to new scientific facts or knowing any other facts .
  
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  51

  Why facts fail to reach the faithful, (even the intelligent ones)

  by done4good in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i posted this on another thread, and decided it deserves its own...thoughts?.

  an unfortunate artifact of evolution is that belief can, and often does trump fact.

  survival is at the core of what belief is about.

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  Fisherman

  facts fail.....
  

  Unlike animals, people buy snake oil all of the time ( thousands of tank loads sold every year to say the least.) Take snake oil for baldness for example, people buy it for 2 reasons, they believe it works, they hope it works for them ignoring the facts.

  Your post assumes and concludes too much. There is no logical fallacy in Bible faith. Faith is logic based on solid fact like taking medicine that works. The effact should realize after the length of treatment is completed. Those that have faith take the medicine and wait for it to work. Those that do not, don't buy it.

  Facts do not trump other facts and that is the sophistry of your argument assuming that faith is based on belief (not a talking horse) and that the basis for faith can be invalidated with any new facts whatsoever.
  
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  63

  What were Satan and his demons "doing" up in heaven, before being "cast down" in 1914?

  by Dunedain in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was just thinking about how the wts has been spouting off for years that satan and his demons were cast down to the vicinity of the earth in 1914, but really, when you think about it, what was the difference before 1914 or after 1914?.

  its not like satan and his demons did not have access to the earth.

  satan and his demons always were messing with earth.

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  Fisherman

  HOW WOULD YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT? whatahadas

  That is extremely painful for me seeing people suffer and feeling helpless not being able to bring them relief but it is also an extremely joyful experience to see when people that were spiritually blind and deaf realize that they can see and hear.
  
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  108

  Leaked Elder's Video: How to deal with a suicidal sister

  by cappytan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this video will be played at one of the clam meetings in march 2016.. the content is kind of old news because it is a recut version of a previous video produced for the elder's school.

  however, it's still significant because it shows that the organization still has dissenting brothers in positions of leadership.. my thanks to the leaker.

  feel free to claim credit here.

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  Fisherman

  Mephis, your catholic is showing.
  
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  63

  What were Satan and his demons "doing" up in heaven, before being "cast down" in 1914?

  by Dunedain in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was just thinking about how the wts has been spouting off for years that satan and his demons were cast down to the vicinity of the earth in 1914, but really, when you think about it, what was the difference before 1914 or after 1914?.

  its not like satan and his demons did not have access to the earth.

  satan and his demons always were messing with earth.

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  Fisherman

  wave hands and say "it's a mystery"

  Simon, if your thinking is like mine then you do not buy into any hypothesis' or theorems or arguments, or testimonies, or hearsay recorded in any books or religions proclaiming a whole bunch of stuff (nonetheless it can considerable or even integral but not on its own) in concluding that something is real, a fact. I need a talking horse or I don't buy it. I am more skeptical than most people and my mind needs a lot more evidence to be convinced that something is true than most people.. And everybody is different some people need more proof others less. But each person knows what he needs to be convinced. But some people are gullible and just swallow anything to be true, and others just cannot see at all in-spite of the facts because they are blind or because motive or something else colors their view. Thomas was convinced.

  People have a problem distinguishing belief from knowledge, and evidence from a conclusion from the evidence as I wrote about in my previous post.

  A lot of people were born into a religion like jews and moslems for example, and I have spoken to scientist and doctors and lawyers and judges that are so enveloped in the thinking of such religions that inspite of their analytical thinking skills, they believe nonensical unscientific teachings of their religions.

  It is also possible to be convinced using non-falacious logical thinking that an event occurred, same way a jury or a judge can be persuaded or convinced (or beguiled) to conclude that something is true. But no one will put their head on the chopping block because they just do not know -If did not see it happen.
  

  Some fanatics will put their heads on the chopping blocks thinking that what they believe is fact. They are mistaken.
  

  And then there exists evidence that can be measured. When YOU measure evidence YOU know it is real. But even then, you can fool yourself into concluding too much from evidence.

  The only way YOU know if some supernatural reality exists is if YOU can measure it physically somehow.

  Assuming that it does, not being able to understand it or not being able to reconcile what seems to be impossible about it do not invalidate that it is real. It appears to me though that a supernatural reality should follow the same rules of logic as physical reality if God required faith. It has to be able to be explained somehow in human terms and that is what the Bible is all about. The Bible explains the interphase relationship between the physical and the supernatural realm. Like a programing language you need to learn the syntax of the Bible with the mind-frame that the language works . It is all consistent and everything ties in together and everything can be logically reconciled. But a person can also say that the language does not work and never bother to learn it.The aproach to understanding the Bible is to learn it as an entire poem. An ironic poem crossword puzzle It is not an easy thing to do and it takes a lot of workbut everything fits together nicely once you get to that point when you get the whole picture -not that you undersand the meaning of everything but your mind is staisfied that you read enough to be convinced.
  

  Bottom line is justice then relief. People need relief not proof but proof is the only solid basis (faith) to believe in relief. JWs do not need more proof.They would not be surprised to see angles come and go or any supernatural evidence whatsoever. It is comforting and faith strengthening but to JW it is not about evidence.
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  63

  What were Satan and his demons "doing" up in heaven, before being "cast down" in 1914?

  by Dunedain in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was just thinking about how the wts has been spouting off for years that satan and his demons were cast down to the vicinity of the earth in 1914, but really, when you think about it, what was the difference before 1914 or after 1914?.

  its not like satan and his demons did not have access to the earth.

  satan and his demons always were messing with earth.

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  Fisherman

  "This event loses more ad more credibility as each year passes, I wonder how much longer it can be believed?"

  For those that never saw the event, the event never had any significance to begin with. For those that believe the event occurred based on a teaching without any proof of the event can stop believing for any reason at any time For those convinced that the event did occur in 1914 do not need any more evidence to be convinced, or to make the event any more of a fact. They know. The problem for these later ones is what they concluded from the evidence that they saw and see. They concluded that they would be in a paradise earth in a couple of years and that ain't happening. The Jews did not need to see any more manna coming down from heaven or Moses hitting any more rocks to give them water, they saw that all of the time. They wanted relief.The people that experienced the evidence from Jesus signs did not need to see any more to believe, they were convinced but they still needed to know " when will these things be" and they still got their heads chopped off and killed and died like everybody else (yet even as they were dying, they knew what they knew to be a fact.) The churches that Jesus spoke to recorded in the book of Revelation also had all the evidence to know that the events were facts and they were still getting into trouble -because it is not about evidence Once again, it is not about credibility, it is about relief, the realization of the reward. That is why people loose faith.
  
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  63

  What were Satan and his demons "doing" up in heaven, before being "cast down" in 1914?

  by Dunedain in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was just thinking about how the wts has been spouting off for years that satan and his demons were cast down to the vicinity of the earth in 1914, but really, when you think about it, what was the difference before 1914 or after 1914?.

  its not like satan and his demons did not have access to the earth.

  satan and his demons always were messing with earth.

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  Fisherman

  An eternal superbeing of infinite power needing to be crucified by the Romans before he can do anything? Not so much.

  God could have killed Satan a long time ago, but he did not, so he has his good reasons why he does things his way but it is not because he is not Almighty.
  
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  63

  What were Satan and his demons "doing" up in heaven, before being "cast down" in 1914?

  by Dunedain in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was just thinking about how the wts has been spouting off for years that satan and his demons were cast down to the vicinity of the earth in 1914, but really, when you think about it, what was the difference before 1914 or after 1914?.

  its not like satan and his demons did not have access to the earth.

  satan and his demons always were messing with earth.

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  Fisherman

  Jesus answered him: “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been granted to you from above."

  Jesus did not have any power to use his authority when he was held captive in death for 3 days needing a resurrection.

  God entrusted Jesus with all authority as Jesus said at that time, but Jesus did not have the power to exercise it all until after he died loyal and resurrected and in kingdom power. Fact is they killed him -authority and all. As a human creature Jesus certainly did not have the power at that time
  

  Authority involves the duties that are delegated to an individual while power is the possession of control that allows an individual to influence the actions of others.

  But even in-spite of having both power and authority, there also exists other factors why a person does not use it. God has both and he did not immediately burn down the house.
  

  You need to think a little bit instead of making wild guesses about everything.
  
  
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  63

  What were Satan and his demons "doing" up in heaven, before being "cast down" in 1914?

  by Dunedain in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was just thinking about how the wts has been spouting off for years that satan and his demons were cast down to the vicinity of the earth in 1914, but really, when you think about it, what was the difference before 1914 or after 1914?.

  its not like satan and his demons did not have access to the earth.

  satan and his demons always were messing with earth.

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  2. 
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  Fisherman

  good point. It is not like the demons dominated the heavens before 1914

  Try living in the same house with vermin.