Posts by Incognito

Google routinely release new products on April 1, some of which are legitimate. 'G' Mail was first announced a few years back on April 1. Many did not take it seriously at the time.

I understand that they increased inbox sizes to 3 GB this April 1. Go to the Gmail welcome page & you'll actually see the size increasing.

Incog

42

NEED HELP: What's wrong with CURRENT Borg policy on molestation?

by Open mind in

ok, first off, please don't shoot the messenger here.

the dateline show on jws hiding pedophiles was one of several "defining moments" in my process of questioning "the truth".

it disgusted me.

Incognito

I believe the biggest problem with their policy is that it doesn’t acknowledge that Child molestation is a CRIME and ought to be ALWAYS treated as such whether or not mandatory reporting exists.

The Policies the WTS institute generally are very legalistic & protective of the Organization & show little concern, protection, compassion or support for the injured party or other potential victims.

Now the policy is to report it to the authorities where that's the law and to make sure the parents know that there will be NO REPERCUSSIONS towards them for going to the police.

They are masters of Double Talk & as long term Witnesses; we became accustomed to knowing what was really meant when something was publicly stated from the platform or in the Watchtower.

This organization has always pushed that when matters arise between members, those matters were to be handled within the congregation. Instead of promoting parents to first take the matter to the Authorities, they want congregation Elders to investigate the issue (although they've no formal training in Crime Investigation, Molestation, Psychology or Emotional Support) before going any further. The parent is then told that there is NO REPERCUSSIONS if they themselves wish to take the matter to Authorities. This in itself is a negative statement as it's highlighting a negative aspect (a penalty) instead of promoting a positive (support and assistance). This statement also does not address the Elders position on going to the Authorities.

Although there may not be 'Official Repercussions', there are always the informal penalties for minor infractions against the Organization (I think Whistle Blowing would be considered more than minor), enforced through-out the congregation, following the Whistle Blower to another Congregation, should they relocate.

Also, I've heard individual elders from states that don't have mandatory reporting requirements say they would "drop a dime in a heartbeat" on a child molestor even though the law and the Borg don't require it in those states.

In a hypothetical situation, some Elders might believe that they would do things in certain way. If a real situation arises and they're backed into a corner, they may find that holding the 'company line' is the route they end up taking as they might perceive that to be the safest, easiest & most consistent course of action. Even if they push to go contrary to the remaining Elder body & the Society, they will be heavily ostracized & most likely be removed from their position as Elder.

The two-witness rule. Well, they've humbly responded on this one as well.

now if a molestor is accused by two kids for two separate events, that passes the two-witness rule

Unfortunately, just because having single witnesses to two separate events CAN fulfill the two witness rule, does not always mean that it will. It can depend on who the 2 witnesses are. Are children's accusation treated as reliable or is the first instinct of the Elders to think that the child is lying and to drop the issue? If one of the abused was a child of a J.Witness and the other was a 'worldly' child, would this count as 2 witnesses? Will the 'worldly' event actually be considered an event?

I understand that when the elders get a report of an abuse with a single witness to the event (the abused party); they are to query the accused as to the truthfulness of the accusation. If the accused denies the allegation, the matter is to be treated as hearsay & is considered as never happening. The Police are not necessarily notified and the accuser is told to forgive the accused & drop the issue as pursuing the matter further by the accuser would be treated as SLANDERING the accused and ‘Causing Divisions’ within the congregation, resulting in possible penalties to the accuser. Records are not necessarily kept, so that subsequent reports pertaining to the same accused could potentially again be treated as a 1st offence.

Some families whose child was abused may not necessarily come forward to the elders or anyone else, or if they do, the matter might be reported years after the molestation(s) occurred. Even if the Elders ‘investigating’ the original allegation believe the accusation but can't ‘prove’ the matter due to lack of an initial 2nd witness, if no written records are available, these same elders would have to be still active & in a similar capacity of congregation responsibility, going from memory years later when the 2nd witness comes forward. To satisfy the two witness rule, the initial accuser would also need to be available and willing to 'testify' in order for the Elders to move forward.

In both these scenarios, the potential for a molester to molest many children exists after the initial accusation as there is usually no penalty imposed if denied. Even if a 2nd witness comes forward, the 2 witness rule might still not apply. Since these accusations are to be kept secret, any potential 2nd witness that is feeling intimidated, guilty, confused or embarrassed, may be reluctant to come forward. They may feel that they are alone in their situation and don’t wish to bring ‘reproach on Jehovah’s name’. If they knew that they were not alone, they might feel less reluctant to come forward.

A question that I have considered many times is that even if a good written Policy on these matters exists, would it really be followed in all cases? The fact that Elders are instructed to first call ‘Legal’ appears that each case might have a ‘unique solution’ applied which may or may not follow any written policy.

Incognito

16

Get a load of this video... Mad Jw's at the door!!!

by AK - Jeff in

is this staged?

i noticed the man kept calling the householder 'brother', i never heard that done in the ministry.

opinions?.

Incognito

Possibly fake, but I'm thinking that they were not Witnesses but part of some other group (Youth for Christ perhaps??)

Witness speak is not heard here. The guy didn't know that their 'get together' with 'refreshments' was 8:30 PM & not 8:00.

As Witnesses, we're led to believe that Witnesses (and Mormons) only go D2D, but in reality, there are other groups who do also (maybe not as frequently).

Incognito

6

Original QUOTES web archive is still available.

by Incognito in

jw
friends

hi again.. i just learned about a web archiving site that keeps a library of many web sites, even ones no longer registered.. i thought i'd check to see if the deactivated quotes.watchtower.ca site was archived.

sure enough, much of the quotes site is still available, although not all updates or photos are displayed.

perhaps links to items hosted on web servers other than the archived site aren't available through the normal links.. the name of the site is the internet archive and is at www.archive.org.

Incognito

Thanks for your reply jgnat,

It's about as effective as squeezing water.

I like your analogy. Very true. They can fight all they want to have information removed, but once created, it never really goes away.

I'm ready to make a prediction. The new literature arrangement in 2008 will have absolutely no impact on the ability of the internet community to keep current with the Watchtower.

You are probably very correct. This has been shown time & again with the posting of the restricted distribution 'Flock' book.

It seems that the more something is restricted, the more challenge and fun it is to 'hack' the restriction by those restricted from access. Many times, it becomes a matter of bragging rights in the ability to 'beat the system'. Some individuals intent of obtaining the restricted information wouldn't necessarily care about the information in the first place, if it was unrestricted.

Once something restricted is broken open, it many times becomes more widely distributed than if it was unrestricted. Hey, wait. Do you think that this might actually be their plan?....... Naaaahh!

Incognito

6

Original QUOTES web archive is still available.

by Incognito in

jw
friends

hi again.. i just learned about a web archiving site that keeps a library of many web sites, even ones no longer registered.. i thought i'd check to see if the deactivated quotes.watchtower.ca site was archived.

sure enough, much of the quotes site is still available, although not all updates or photos are displayed.

perhaps links to items hosted on web servers other than the archived site aren't available through the normal links.. the name of the site is the internet archive and is at www.archive.org.

Incognito

Dismembered,

It wasn't the point of my post to look for the Quotes website. It is the ability to find older information on sites that are no longer around. The QUOTES site is an example of one of common interest on this site. I'm sure that there are other deactivated sites that some members have an interest in finding.

I am familiar with the reexamine site. Thank you just the same.

Incognito

6

Original QUOTES web archive is still available.

by Incognito in

jw
friends

hi again.. i just learned about a web archiving site that keeps a library of many web sites, even ones no longer registered.. i thought i'd check to see if the deactivated quotes.watchtower.ca site was archived.

sure enough, much of the quotes site is still available, although not all updates or photos are displayed.

perhaps links to items hosted on web servers other than the archived site aren't available through the normal links.. the name of the site is the internet archive and is at www.archive.org.

Incognito

6

Original QUOTES web archive is still available.

by Incognito in

jw
friends

hi again.. i just learned about a web archiving site that keeps a library of many web sites, even ones no longer registered.. i thought i'd check to see if the deactivated quotes.watchtower.ca site was archived.

sure enough, much of the quotes site is still available, although not all updates or photos are displayed.

perhaps links to items hosted on web servers other than the archived site aren't available through the normal links.. the name of the site is the internet archive and is at www.archive.org.

Incognito

Hi again.

I just learned about a web archiving site that keeps a library of many web sites, even ones no longer registered.

I thought I'd check to see if the deactivated quotes.watchtower.ca site was archived. Sure enough, much of the Quotes site is still available, although not all updates or photos are displayed. Perhaps links to items hosted on web servers other than the archived site aren't available through the normal links.

The name of the site is The Internet Archive and is at www.archive.org. It currently states that it has 85 Billion pages on record.

Once there, you can enter the URL of the site of interest, as it was when it was active & hit the "Take Me Back" button.

The resulting page will have various linked dates that the site has changed, but not all dates necessarily have archived information available.

The latest available Quotes archive appears to be December 19, 2005 although later dates are listed. Its link is here: http://web.archive.org/web/20051219001238/http://quotes.watchtower.ca/

I also checked to see if archives of the original www.quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com site were available, which they are. Here's the link to the earliest one: http://web.archive.org/web/19990125091600/http://quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com/

The Watchtower fights to have sites such as this deactivated, and spends considerable time & money doing so. As we know, numerous sites replicating the same information became active, but it's interesting that the originals never really go away. Most likely, a copy of anything posted exists somewhere. The trick is to know where to look.

Remember! Be careful what you say. If posted, it most likely can't be denied.

35

At long last - Six Screens of the Watchtower website now Open!

by Incognito in

jw
friends

hi everybody.. i've been a long time lurker here (as are sooo many others.

further to following mouthy's thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/11/129936/1.ashx , i noticed that the 'six screens' website is finally shown as being able to be 'checked out'.. i believe minimus first posted about this some months back.

some here have been waiting & asking about it ever since.. http://www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com.

Incognito

Hi Everybody.

I've been a long time lurker here (as are sooo many others) & regularly read, learn & verify as much as possible.

Further to following Mouthy's thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/11/129936/1.ashx , I noticed that the 'Six Screens' website is finally shown as being able to be 'checked out'.

I believe Minimus first posted about this some months back. Some here have been waiting & asking about it ever since.

http://www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com

184

UPDATE!: THEY ALL ADMITTED EGGING US -Elders now know, heads are rolling!!

by Lady Liberty in

jw
friends

oh.... how the saga goes on!!

i swear we could write a novel about our life exiting the watchtower!!

ok..many of you read what happened..our house was egged and so was my sisters car that was parked here, and "frosty" was attacked!!

Incognito

snowcanuk said: when i read your ongoing saga I thought the best punishment would be to ask them to go out and purchase a brand new "frosty"... they did in fact tear his frosty head off, no?....can you imagine their horror of being 'caught' by fellow dubs? Surely there must be some christmas stuff still on sale in some stores....i just think it would be priceless to have them buy something that they think is so "evil". ahh....but thats me.....i think, and reading here all wont agree with me, that reporting it as a hate crime will cause bad relations with your neighbours and as much as i dont think too highly of my neighbours i would try to keep the peace if i can.....turn the other cheek..be a forgiving neighbour, let the elders deal with them in whatever way they see fit (eyes rolling), and make them buy you a new FROSTY!!

Sorry, I don't wish to hijack this thread but:

I know people usually decorate for Christmas with various ornaments such as 'Frosty', but what does 'Frosty' really have to do with Christmas. After being a JW for 40+ years, I don't know what is wrong with a SNOWMAN - even by JW excessive rules?

I've used the same reasoning with various winter songs Ie: 'Jingle Bells'. In the past, a Witness was surprised that I knew the words to this song being a Christmas song. I asked him what it had to do with Christmas as it had only to do with riding in a Sleigh in winter. He thought for a moment & realized that I was right. I'm sure he went back to believing it was a Christmas song right after though.

Incognito