Posts by Incognito

5

Should true Christians listen to symposiums?

by sir82 in

jw
friends

anyone whose been to a circuit assembly or district convention over the past 5 years knows how the society has gone absolutely ape-$#!+ crazy over the word "symposium".. there's a symposium every morning...every afternoon....every multi-talk unit is introduced as a "symposium"...the km articles hyping the assemblies ramble on about how we can look forward with great enthusiasm to all the symposiums....at lunchtime, the talk is all about "oh what a great symposium"...symposium this, symposium that..... anyways, i'm currently reading "the jews in the time of jesus" by stephen wylen, an entry-level discussion of jewish belief in the 2nd temple period concentrating on, not surprisingly, the jews in the time of jesus.. in one chapter he is comparing jewish ritual meals to christian ritual meals, and how the seder morphed into the eucharist.. he talks how the seder was done in the first century, and compares it to a typical hellenistic (greek) banquet.. here's what i found amusing:.

"at the hellenistic banquet the participants sat on sofas around a low table, dining at leisure.

meanwhile, they discussed a prepared topic.

Incognito

Symposiums have a...

PAGAN ORIGIN!

And I thought symposiums were just a Tag Team method of talking too long on one subject.

22

Why can pioneers count time working on WT construction but not looking after orphans, widows, the hungry, the thirsty or the homeless?

by yesidid in

jw
friends

apart from the scripture about love being the identifying mark of a christian, it seems to me that james 1,27 and matthew 25:34-40 quoted below are the biblical priorities of a christian.. .

although preaching was not included in the three quotes i guess it would be included as christian thing to do.

it has been the thing most stressed by the watchtower hierarchy and certain hours are required to be an elder etc.. does it show something about their priorities that pioneers can count time hour for hour when working on watchtower buildings?

Incognito

Permitting 'Pioneers' to count time for these activities is a cost free method to get them to participate in giving their time to help build the WT real estate empire or to provide free labour at Bethel.

Since Pioneers must attain a set number of hours per month in the preaching work, how many Pioneers would participate in WT construction projects or at Bethel if they still needed to get their full quota of 'countable' time and in addition, earn some money to live on?

Allowing Pioneers to count their time, cost the WT absolutely nothing while benefitting both the Pioneer and the WT. The Pioneer may be involved in more enjoyable and rewarding activities than FS, while still banking countable hours to submit. The WT benefits in free labour over the long run since KHs, Assembly Halls and other projects will normally become assets of the WT eventually.

If regular 'Publishers' were permitted to count time participating in these projects, how many pubs would go searching for and participating in 'build projects' rather than go door to door? I believe the WT is well aware and know too well that few JWs would go d2d if they can get out of it.

Since so many JWs will gladly participate in these construction activities although they do not personally gain anything, what benefit to the WT would there be by allowing regular JW Publishers to count their time building KHs or other WT assets?

The WT is all about what benefits the WT. What would the WT gain in permitting Pioneers or Publishers to count their time looking after the needs of Widows, Orphans or anyone in need?

On occasions where individual JWs give of their personal time helping others (usually limited to other JWs or JW associates) following a disaster, the WT usually capitalizes and takes credit for the effort within any media coverage and within WT publications.

Edited to add: In regards to Bangalor's comment, since media coverage of individual JWs assisting in disaster relief efforts makes it appear that the the WT has arranged and is paying for these efforts, I'm sure that this publicity assists the WT to maintain their Tax Free Charitable status.

35

The letter re: coil binding the elder book

by booby in

i think if an (intelligent) questioning jw was able to read the letter about coil binding the book the impact could/should be greater.

this letter should be an embarrassment to the gb.

what blatant and stupid instructions sent to a large group of men who are supposed to be available to instruct in an intelligent way persons coming with an assortment of life's problems.

Incognito

That book is designed to make their most devoted and often abused adherents, feel 'Privileged' and 'Exclusive' as this book is for their eyes only and not to be shared or viewed by any one else. As has already been stated, there really is nothing stated in it that hasn't been printed in other, regular WT publications.

Becoming an 'Elder' often requires little more that years of butt kissing and consistently reporting at least the national average of door knocking time. Notice I said 'reporting', not necessarily doing although he will need to be viewed as doing his share.

If a practicing baptised male is liked and accepted by the other Elders and the CO, and is willing to never question anything, only saying 'Yes' and whatever else they expect to hear, he can often 'fast track' his way into this exclusive group. Of course, green handshakes to the CO never hurt his chances.

Although a small number of Elders are well intentioned, empathetic and reasonable, there are too many that 'get off' on the attention and power of the title and often offer little of benefit to the congregation.

This is mostly an exclusive old boys club, similar to the Sacred Order of Water Buffalos. All that's missing is the cigars, funny hats and the secret handshake.

Since JWs aren't to smoke, and since wearing a funny hat would be too obvious, maybe the Elders manual is a replacement for the hats. Besides, the WT is a publishing organization so it makes sense that whatever object provided only to the Elders club would be something printed.

Perhaps what's needed now is a secret handshake - or maybe, they already have one?

92

Dating a JW for 3 yrs

by justbreathe825 in

my bf and i are thinking on getting married.

i posted a foum early this week on whether or not i should get baptized.

i decided not to.. now even though he says he "doesn't care" he got upset last night when i mentioned the subject and how confused i was.

Incognito

Justbreathe825 said:

Ayyyyyy what a dilemma...I wish I could just say heck with all this and find myself a new guy but ahhhh some of us are just too weak!

If you keep telling yourself that you're too weak, that's all you'll ever be! We often become what we tell ourselves we are.

You recognized something wasn't right in your relationship, especially as it related to the JW religion and came to this discussion forum asking for advice and validation. You received the advice that you asked for and your feelings and observations were validated. Unfortunately, it seems you were told not what you wanted to hear so you make the excuse that you're too weak, implying that you'll put-up with whatever crap is thrown your way. I hope you actually have more self-esteem than that.

You might consider some of the advice given as harsh or critical. Please consider that most on this forum now regret their time as JWs and do not wish anyone else to be trapped in that lifestyle. We know full well what is expected and how JWs act and think.

Many here now wish that they were provided the advice you were given, early on before they ever became JWs. Although you're essentially a stranger to us, no one desires to see you hurt or otherwise entering a life that you'll soon realize is a mistake.

It's ultimately up to you whether you heed the advice you were given but remember, you are responsible for your own life, however it may turn out.

Go through life with your eyes open, considering all options. Don't regret decisions made because you felt obligated, unworthy or desperate.

With regard to your BF, he may be a great guy and a fellow we might all like. Unfortunately, he was brought-up as a JW and was conditioned to think and act as one. JW programing is is very ingrained, especially when a person is raised within it. Ideas taught to a child will usually be with him/her for life and are very tough to change or otherwise unlearn.

Even though you say he doesn't believe, he is happy to play 'The Game' otherwise, he wouldn't have been a Ministerial Servant (I read your "To Be" thread). I personally have a tough time believing that he doesn't believe.

Although he has taken a break to 'sew his wild oats', you have stated he fully expects to continue as a JW and becomes upset when you show any doubt or otherwise not follow through with your indoctrination into becoming a good little JW wife.

He's obviously already thought ahead to having children and he knows full well that they'll be required to attend every meeting and participate in field service. He's fooling himself (and you) if he actually thinks that they'll celebrate their birthdays or any other 'worldly' or 'pagan' celebration. They'll be required to stand in the hall at school during the National Anthem, Pledge of Allegiance or other nationalistic ceremony and also remove themselves when the class is singing Christmas songs or coloring Halloween Pumpkins.

What's a child to think if they can participate in some things and not others, especially when they've learned at the KH that those things are BAD and Jehovah hates people that do those things ?

Children desire to please their parents. Your BF continues to do anything to please his parents and I expect he's similar to your age. Your future children will not go against anything Daddy requires of them as they will be taught that Jehovah is going to kill everyone that doesn't believe in him.

As a JW man, he is considered the 'Head of the House' and his family is to be in 'full subjection' to him. If any family members living in his home are not in subjection (ie: not indoctrinated JWs), he'll likely be criticised and probably never be given a position (Ministerial Servant, Elder) and may even come to despise you for his lack of status in the congregation.

As you can see, this 'religion' makes life very complicated. What is written above has only scratched the surface. There is lots to consider.

Here is a link to recent thread where a young woman similar to yourself, is dating/living with a JW boy: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/social/relationships/200083/1/Need-advice-about-JW-boyfriend

In addition, view the BEST OF TOPICS section of this forum as there are many other threads written on this subject.

Good Luck!

(Oops, I said LUCK. Another NoNo for a JW)

92

Dating a JW for 3 yrs

by justbreathe825 in

my bf and i are thinking on getting married.

i posted a foum early this week on whether or not i should get baptized.

i decided not to.. now even though he says he "doesn't care" he got upset last night when i mentioned the subject and how confused i was.

Incognito

justbreathe825 said:

I just want to apologize to him for writing about our relationship in public and saying all those horrible things about him/family/religion and for agreeing with the many comments that criticized him. I don't think there's anything wrong with you and I am sorry I did this and hurt your feelings and I hope you can forgive me.

Although what was said might be embarrassing to him, if what you said was truthful, there is nothing to apologize for.

Although you probably normally wouldn't make your relationship so open on a public forum, you are a person that doesn't know much about this religion so you were questioning things that you observed within the relationship and were feeling pressure to conform to.

Your BF is responsible for his actions and the way he treats you - good or horrible. If he is embarrassed by his behavior, then he'd better wise-up and start treating you (and himself) better.

If his feelings are hurt, this is not your responsibility. His feelings are his alone and how he reacts to those feelings is his choice, not yours.

My dearest love I know nothing will be the same between us but I just want you to know you will always stay in my heart and I only wish the best for you and I hope some day you will be happy and find someone that understands you more than I ever did and loves you the same way I do.

I think breaking-up is best done in private, face to face and not on a public forum.

24

Doubt they hide child abuse.....put those doubts to rest today.

by Momma-Tossed-Me in

39. h the accused denies the accusation, the.

investigating elders should try to arrange a meeting.

with him and the accuser together.

Incognito

Sabastious said:

Why not leave everything in "Jehovah's hands" by allowing the individual to act on their own feelings and accord by going to the authorities and leave the elders out of it?

Better yet, encourage and assist the individual to report the matter to the local authorities.

24

Doubt they hide child abuse.....put those doubts to rest today.

by Momma-Tossed-Me in

39. h the accused denies the accusation, the.

investigating elders should try to arrange a meeting.

with him and the accuser together.

Incognito

Maybe each local Child Protective Service and District Attorney office should each receive a copy, with the relevant sections highlighted.

9

Jwsupport forum under going a change.....

by Hope4Others in

jw
friends

we have been crippling along on 3 servers the past several months.

we have needed a forum soft ware update.

we will be working on these issues over the next few days.

Incognito

Hope,

Why don't you try moving the site over to Squarespace http://www.squarespace.com/?source=google&campaign=brand-can&gclid=CLXvpMmo2qQCFUtJ2godKE5YZg ? They offer a free 14 day trial period for you to evaluate their performance.

Although Squarespace is often thought to be a blogging site only, they are capable and open to hosting any type of website. They do have many templates available for those less technically proficient or an existing site may be transfered over as is.

Squarespace I understand, is very scalable on-the-fly so that it's virtually impossible to overload their servers from too much traffic.

16

Being A JW Is FUN!!

by Pig in

some people think that it must be miserable to be a jw because they dont celebrate christmas or birthdays.. but they're wrong!

being a jw is miserable because you cant do fucking anything.. crazy hair day - this was a fundraising day where kids come to school with blue or red died hair and give a $2 donation.

i wasnt allowed to do this because it was too worldly to have "crazy hair" and it would be too hard to wash it out for tomorrow nights meeting.. school camp - this was unnessisary association with those devil worshipping 9 year olds.

Incognito

Pig said:

If you're lucky...

You're not supposed to use that expression either. Please meet with the Elders in the back room.

I dont know if witnesses still do this but i wasnt allowed to do Health Class in grade 5 and 6.

This is not practiced everywhere. My parents (uber JWs always afraid of doing something 'not right') had no problems with health education in school and I've never heard or seen other JW's have a problem with it either. I suppose that by having their children learn Sex Ed at school, this is one subject that they didn't need to discuss with their kids.

Many current JWs are afraid to do anything that places them around 'worldlies' for any more than what is required .

At my wife's place of business, there are ~200 employees including one JW woman. Not only does this JW woman stay home on dress-up days (ie: Halloween costumes permitted for those that want to dress-up), but she won't even attend any shared lunch day (some call it 'Pot Luck') or an Employee Appreciation lunch provided on any date by the company.

39

Need advice about JW boyfriend

by tryingtolove in

i have been with my jw boyfriend for about a year and a half.

he was living with his parents when we first started dating, but now we are living together.

his mother knows, but not his father (who is the one who got them into the jw's and is more strict about it).

Incognito

Trying,

Welcome to the forum. I'm glad to see that you've recognized current problems and can foresee additional problems over the long term. Too bad you didn't ask these questions earlier, before investing 1.5 years in this relationship.

From your initial post, I determine that you don't really know much about JWs or the Watchtower organization. This group is not equivalent to any other religion but is highly controlled and very dictatorial, some say CULT. Ideas and beliefs presented, are not items that members may wish to adopt, but are required beliefs that must be adopted by all JWs, without question or consideration.

Member's minds are conditioned that the WT is God's true organization on earth and that JWs are God's special, chosen people, believing that they are the only group that will survive Armagedon, contrary to what they may tell a non-believer to their face.

You'll probably recognize that it's easiest to teach a person as a child and that what is taught to a child will remain with them and is the hardest to change. Since your BF was raised as a JW, what he was then taught will always be with him.

JW's SHUNNING family members because they no longer practice being a JW is a requirement dictated by the Watchtower for every JW. It is not an option and something only a few extreme JW's do on their own.

By 'pretending' that his son is not living unmarried, with a non believing woman, is a means of the Father not having to shun his son as he doesn't 'technically' have proof of his living arrangement. Once the living arrangement has been confirmed, he will then be required to shun his son and you.

Your boyfriend is fooling himself into thinking that he can live whatever way he wants and still maintain a healthy relationship with his Father. Acceptance by his Father is not your BF's decision otherwise, to be accepted, he must be a fully practicing JW, following every requirement as defined by the WT. Anything less will not be enough and will likely result in shunning by his Father if not his entire JW family.

For YOU to be accepted by his JW Family, you too must be a fully dedicated and practicing JW. Do you have any idea of what is involved? Do you know how many requirements are contradictory to the bible and how much unquestioning allegience must be shown to the Watchtower organization? If you didn't wish to become a JW, would your BF hold it against you for any breakdown in his relationship with his parents? Are you prepared for that?

Do you realize that if you and he had children, if your child was ever injured, as a JW, you would be required to fight against administering a blood transfusion even when the Doctor's determine that this treatment is required to save your child's life?

I have seen many occasions where people raised as JWs, even after not being active members for many years, hold onto the notion that JWs are the 'True' religion and will suddenly return to it. Often the catalyst will be a major event in their life such as birth of a child, loss of a loved one, illness or even marriage. Quite often, they will become extreme in their devotion and place many unreasonable conditions on the relationship with their partner.

For your BF to become a partner that you can rely upon over the long term, he must first come to terms with recognizing that the Watchtower and the JW religion is not the 'Truth' or God's chosen organization. Not practicing and promising he'll never return to being a JW is not enough. Until he is ready to look into this issue, he will likely defend the religion, organization and current teachings, even if he's not practicing. Unless he comes to terms with reality, this issue will always be in his background and mind and can surface at any time, current or future.

JWs are conditioned to believe that God comes first before their marriage partner. Since the WT holds itself as God's true and only organization, they place themselves as God's spokesman on earth. Whatever they say is coming from God will come first and your relationship with him will always be secondary. Since the WT promotes that men are the head of household and women are 'the weaker vessel', you will likely never be an equal partner.

Although no one can predict that your relationship will not work out, unless your BF is ready to deal with and acknowledge the 'falseness' of the organization and religion and knowingly put it behind him, any long term relationship with you will be made more difficult and trying for both of you and may be doomed from the start. Unfortunately, dealing with and accepting the falseness of the religion often has a high cost, usually a breakdown in the relationship with believing family members.

Bluntness of comments made on this forum, is an expression of concern for you as no one desires to see you hurt or involved with a relationship made difficult if not impossible due to religious programing.

I believe everyone here wishes you and your BF well and that you and he can work through this in an informed manner.

You may want to read through the 'Best Of Topics' section of this forum as situations similar to yours have been previously addressed. Ask any other questions you wish.