Posts by beebee

12

Need Ideas - Parenting Problem/Question

by exjwshell in

jw
friends

here's a question to all of you parents out there.... do any of you, especially those who were born and raised as a jw, have trouble parenting your non-jw children?...

i've been "out" for 18 years and since then have married and had two children.

i find it incredibly difficult to not parent "witness style".

beebee

I used to teach parenting classes. It's not just ex-jw's who want help deciding how to raise their kids. Keep in mind it IS always your choice. Some parents will be strict, some will be laid-back, some will be careless. I will suggest some basics, but you may want to hunt around for some classes that are age appropriate for your kids (for you to take, not them). I never viewed the classes I took as telling me what to do, but rather part of my "toolbox," stuff I could refer back to when establishing my own style. I got involved because I did not want to raise my kids like my parents raised me. It worked; I am a different parent.

Favorite author: John Rosemond - I like his stuff because it is very logical, and parent-centered. So many other experts set parents up to have their kids rule the roost. That's a recipe for disaster. Our job as parents is to set limits, teach right from wrong, help them learn the skills they will need as adults, share your values and love them unconditionally (this doesn't mean tolerating bad behavior. What's the cliche, "love the child, not the bad deed", something like that). Another well-respected auther is Adele Faber. I have her "Siblings Without Rivalry" book and it was very helpful.

The five basic principals of positive parenting are:

1. Lead by example
2. Clearly define your expectations (in other words, if you say "clean your room" does the child understand exactly what you expect)
3. Insure the child has what they need to deliver your expectations ( you may have to teach them new skills, how to use the vacuum, duster, etc.)
4. Give them the freedom to do it their way (end result is what counts, micromanaging creates neurotics)
5. Provide constructive feedback

Choose your battles is definitely a must. You and your spouse need to sit down and create a list of what you each feel is important, and how you want to best convey that message. It is also helpful once you've defined your limits, to discuss, in advance, the consequences for breaking them - here the more logical the consequence the better, ie. you miss curfew, you miss the next party, or you drive irresponsibly, you lose the car for the month, etc.

I find one of the biggest places parents miss out is in explaining their expectations to their child. My ex and I recently had a discussion on this. He was upset that our daughter wasn't doing her chores and had just not paid her allowance, but she thought he'd just forgotten to give her the money. He had never explained, in advance, that they were tied together, what exactly he wanted done, and when he expected it done. A simplier example, when the kids were little and we were going to the mall, I would tell them exactly how I expected them to behave, what I would buy them or not, and that we would leave if they didn't follow the limits set. They were almost always good and I was spared a lot of gimmes and whining (I had another trick for that too, but that's another post..pm if you have little kids and want the trick)

Leverage is everything - I have found as the kids got older that they are always wanting something from me, so I use these wants to get what I want from them. An example, "sure I will drive you to Suzie's as soon as you are done cleaning the bathroom." It works like a charm as long as you don't get wimpy and keep your end, when they haven't kept theirs. Consistency is important!

I'm the kind of parent that prefers to teach my kids how to handle difficult and potentially problematic situations and then let them go, discussing the event after that fact if necessary. Ultimately they will be out on their own and it is far better they know how to stand up for what they believe is right, have the ability to say "no," and be able to logically process the values you have instilled in them. If you protect them from the world, they never learn how to live in it.

So as to the party scenario you described, I would have made sure my child not only understood my values on all the "ugly" stuff (sex, drugs, smoking, drinking, etc.) , but that if they broke the rules I set, they would not be attending such events for some time to come. I also came up with simple plan for concerts; I drive both ways and EVERYONE who rides with us MUST stay sober and smoke free. If I detect anything when I pick them up, my daughter is in trouble and I will tell the other parent. It worked.

Where I used to live, the YWCA taught classes and had a sliding scale for fees. You may need to do some hunting. I'd also be careful of church-led groups, and study what principles they are recommending first. There is still a lot of "spare the rod" kind of instruction out there.

Good luck. And i apologize for always being so darn wordy. I make my living writing. Can you tell??? LOL

14

Anyone ever think that....

by A Paduan in

jw
friends

.

.. that holly wasn't actually a "new study" ......c onsidering that, "you know it's the truth" statement ?

beebee

It is possible that, while she initially had some doubts, she got really scared when we implied it wasn't the truth. I saw in all her posts a very strong need to find "the witness." Whatever her history is, she needs to believe the end is near and is scared to death she'll be left out of the "winning" group.

Most of us are not preoccupied with a fear of death (at least not anymore), and many are doubtful such concerns are even merited. She clearly was looking for something that confirmed her beliefs and fears, not a reason to dispell them. While most of us know she could have chosen any of the fundy groups, the JWs got to her first.

Catholicism is easy to pick apart these days. The media allows people to "know too much" to for most to blindly accept their doctrine. It's also far too easy to maintain absolute control of your life and still be a Catholic. For someone lacking the confidence in themselves, that may well be too frightening.

I keep thinking about John Walker Lynde, the kid from No. Cal who had become a militant part of the Taliban. He'd been raised by laid back hippies who exposed him to many of the major religions, and encouraged him to think for himself. Somehow, perhaps because his parents had been so laid back and didn't provide a lot of structure, he openly sought out that structure and a firm set of rules. He said he LIKED being told exactly when to wake up and detailed instructions on how to live his life. He said he liked the firm structure. Twisted little f### also said he liked their view on women. Clearly this kid had major problems with self-confidence. The group made him feel important and powerful, when he otherwise felt impotent.

I've always wondered what would draw a female into Islam. (other than following a man they love) The culture puts women into such a subservient role, but there are women who prefer that.

Holly clearly falls into this needy category. Perhaps she will get exactly what she needs. However if she has kids, I feel very sorry for them, because HER choice is going to impact them and they aren't being given a choice on that.

17

My father(elder) wont let me borrow music!

by Es in

jw
friends

hey there everyone,.

well my saga continues.... for those who don't know i am getting married this being my second time round, only difference is im marrying a non believer.

i have been fading from the truth for bout 3 years now.. anyway just a short time ago my father (elder) suggested that they look after my son so my new husband and i could have a honeymoon.

beebee

the public library in many cities often have cds for free use. You won't find the latest stuff, but then I suspect that isn't what your dad has either.

39

Are some people REALLY better off in high-control groups?

by seattleniceguy in

jw
friends

in holly's good-bye thread, quotes mentioned that he felt that some people were better off in high-control groups.

i've heard othes say similar things.. but i have a difficult time with this.

is it not true that high-control groups stiffle a person's emotional and intellectual development?

beebee

Not counting those that are born and raised within a high control group (for whom this is the only way of living they know), for those who join, all I can say is that it seems there are a lot of people who are raised to be dependent. A lot of parents these days, and even back when I was a kid, do everything for their kids, ask little in return, teach them how to take care of themselves (my husband and all his siblings left home unable to cook, clean or do their own laundry..two stayed at home until they married), shelter them from the types of issues and decisions they need to make, etc.

They are trying to be loving and nuturing, but they fail to teach their children how to be adults. When these kids are adults, and need to get out on their own, they are ill equipped to make any sort of decisions. They need someone to guide them and religion provides one of the more constructive tools (others end up in controlling relationships or as losers).

Add to this the number of people who really have little faith in themselves and their own abilities. Then you have those that need some reason to feel superior to others. These groups have their members convinced that ONLY they are right, hence the smug final message from Holly. She feels she has it right, and we are all wrong. It isn't a matter of agreeing to disagree, she really thinks she's made the better decision.

I stand by the analogy I made in the other thread, being part of a controlling religion is very much like being with an abusive spouse. The victim eventually buys the garbage that they deserve everything bad that happens, and that if they'd only be "a little bit better" they'd get all the good things and be happy.

162

Goodbye everyone

by holly in

jw
friends

its time to leave.

i have had all the answers i need to make a firm decision.

thank you so much everyone for your replies, for talking to me over the last few weeks and for some of the humour.. i believe the jws are right and that they have the truth.

beebee

I did find it interesting that in her other thread, I offered questions for her to ponder, not biblical questions, but logical things relating to not just the beliefs, but acceptance of a lifestyle, the possibility of walking away from one's children, etc.

She didn't offer ANY response. Not opposition, not a challenge, nothing. Like maybe they were questions she didn't want to think about.

Hmmm....

Holly, if you read this, I do wish you well. Did you ever get to read the thread (i'd link to it if I could remember the topic) where I posted an article I found on Dr. Phil's website, where Hedda Nussbaum, a woman who was severely abused by her common-law husband, listed the warning signs you might be in an abusive relationship? Now mind you, the list was meant for people who were dating people. But as I read the list, I realized that almost ALL the questions could pertain to the way the WT controls the JWs.

An abusive and controlling relationship can exist between a person and an entity too. Of course, people in abusive relationships often defend the abuser, or make excuses, or accept blame or partial blame for their victimization. That's the psychological abuse talking! Unfortunately, you are too far "in the clutches" of the "let's join the party" love bombing to see the future. Women in abusive relationships often get the same thing...in the beginning. I lived it. An overattentive and passionate spouse, then the controlling behaviors, then the put downs, then the first abuse, then the effusive apologies, then the ongoing abuse and the "well you make me do it" and it spirals downward from there.

I will agree you had plenty of opportunity to hear from those that have been there, and you have chosen to believe the abuser, rather than the victim.

Good luck.

114

I think the jws might be right

by holly in

jw
friends

i really like this board.

i hate making this statement bec i dont want you to all start hating me.

but since i came on here i have been researching a lot.

beebee

Holly,

I can understand how you may like their approach to the bible, so I am not going to get involved in the right or wrong of their translation. Besides I'm not qualified to debate that. But I was thinking about you when I was picking up my son today and the movie "Sophie's Choice" came to mind. I don't know if you are a parent yet; it sounds like you aren't, so maybe this isn't something you can understand yet, but anyway... If you didn't see the movie, it is about a woman in WWII who must decide whether or not to let the Nazis take her daughter off to the gas chambers, in exchange for her son and herself living (at least for a while longer). The choice, they both die now, or she dies and he lives. She let them take their daughter, but as time went on, she ended up not just regreting that choice, but losing her mind and soul.

The choice of the active dub parent is often similar. It seems few families manage to keep ALL of their adult children in "the truth." Even those that might have kids officially in, know their kids are living double lives, or on the edge. Thus these children will not meet the criteria for paradise. They will all die (per the WT). Parents are supposed to shun their kids that leave. To obey the rules and qualify for salvation, they must cut off kids that are baptised, then later leave or are thrown out.

I remember when my girls were babies and both in car seats, we were driving over a bridge. I'm paranoid of bridges. So I'm thinking, what if we fell into the water and there wasn't enough time to get them both out of the car? Would I choose one, which would I choose, or would we all go down together. My decision, probably what most parents would say, is that I could not choose one child over the other, but would go down with both. It may not seem logical if they aren't your children, but love isn't logical.

To me the choice is the same. Can you really choose one child over another? Or would you all die together? Would you want to live and eternal life if one or more didn't?

As to my questions in the last post, the only right answers are the ones you can live with.

This religion is more than a belief system, it's a culture with a highly regimented and structured set of rules. If you get baptised, you have to accept the rules and lifestyle with the belief system.

114

I think the jws might be right

by holly in

jw
friends

i really like this board.

i hate making this statement bec i dont want you to all start hating me.

but since i came on here i have been researching a lot.

beebee

Holly I am not a Witness or ex witness so my thoughts are just food for thought based on my logic but here are a few questions you may want to think about:

1. You said you want to get closer to G-d, do you really feel ANY one religion takes you closer than another?
2. Do you feel a religion that believes its own testament takes precedent over the original bible is likely to be "right?" (this would hold true for Mormonism, Scientology and many others)
3. Do you really believe G-d created mankind to destroy most of them?
4. Do you think you would be happy in a religion where perfection [to their standards} is required for salvation and admission to paradise, when likely no one ever truly lives up to those rules perfectly?
5. Can you live within a religion and religious community where if you confess your sins (because you want to make things right), you can be thrown out for doing so instead of given guidance and the opportunity to improve?
6. Do you really believe that when you are judged by G-d, you will be judged by how many hours you clocked preaching, how well you obeyed the "rules", by how effectively you shunned those that didn't, and whether or not you had sex with your spouse in any position other than missionary? My logic says that we will be judged by our deeds - how well we treat people (all, not just a select group), how well we strived to raise our children to be productive and happy adults, how honest we are in our dealings with others, how generous we are when we see people in need, etc.. Much of my beliefs run counter to both the belief system and actual practice of JWs.
7. Are you ready to spend all of your live striving for perfection, missing the mark, and making huge sacrifices in hopes of getting to paradise, which is still just a faith-based belief and not even a reality? (this always gets me..why am I to not lead a good life while here on earth for the mere promise of something better - if this were true, why live and ever fight to survive illness?)
8. Are you prepared to shun your children if they don't become good witnesses, knowing that if you don't follow the rules on this exactly, you are jeopardizing the very paradise you supposedly joined the religion for?

I understand your desire to get closer to G-d, I just think, obviously like many others on this board, there are better ways to get there and most don't require you to be perfect (didn't Jesus die for our sins anyway?), and don't discourage free thought. As a dub, just asking questions can get you thrown out and that's after they've more or less whittled your social circle down to those that will shun you when you are tossed.

Read the thread on posted by the guy whose wife was shunned at a Memorial service, or go back and look up Tyydyy's threads and see what happened to him and his siblings at their mother's funeral. Mind you he isn't even df'd or da'd. It was a really clear view into life as a dub.

Yes, they might have some stuff right. Like others have said, all religions have some of it right, but what if the important stuff turns out to be wrong and you've given up most of your life and time?

99

Things I love about Texas

by IP_SEC in

jw
friends

being that it's such an auspicious day for the great state.. things i love about texas.. 1. shiner bock.

2. san antonio.

3. corpus christi.

beebee

Blondie,

Probably the Blue Bonnet Cafe. It's well-known for killer pies. They are also so trusting that they let us walk out after dinner to go up the street to get cash from the ATM because we forgot to bring enough.

99

Things I love about Texas

by IP_SEC in

jw
friends

being that it's such an auspicious day for the great state.. things i love about texas.. 1. shiner bock.

2. san antonio.

3. corpus christi.

beebee

I"m not laying claim to Bush....wasn't here when he was the ~~chief as~~s~~hole~~ governor, and didn't vote for him either time. How I so wish our presidential election wasn't always a "lesser of two fools" - 2 republicrat, election. But I did join a few thousand people last summer with my oldest, tyydyy and bubbles to watch Farhenheit 9/11 for free in a field in Crawford, TX. See the city folks there tried to block the showing of the film so the Alamo Drafthouse took its portable movie screen up there and we got to walk through field of protestors and reporters...damn near like being in Berkeley in the 60's and 70's (yep..I got to hang out there in the 70's - yeah man).

Oh yeah..another cool thing about TX, the Alamo Drafthouse where you can sit in a comfy seat with a table in front of you, order decent tasting food and a beer and watch either mainstream movies free of little kiddie screaming (no kids under 6 allowed and none under 18 without a parent) or go to the downtown location and watch really weird stuff and fun strangeness. 1 example - Spaghetti Western Night where you get a good classic Western (last time we saw "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly") with all you can eat spaghetti, salad and foccacia (yes it was good) for like $7. Then there's $1 Mondays, where you get a movie (not new release) for a buck and sodas and popcorn are a buck a piece.

Can you tell I'm way happier here than in CA????

99

Things I love about Texas

by IP_SEC in

jw
friends

being that it's such an auspicious day for the great state.. things i love about texas.. 1. shiner bock.

2. san antonio.

3. corpus christi.

beebee

IP Sec -

There is a building/skyscraper you can see from 35 that that looks f@*!# awsome. I was mesmerized by it, driving through to convention last summer.
What is that building? You know which one? It is so unique looking.

It's the Frost Bank Building and you can google it and get some awesome pics.

More stuff I like:

The fact that Leslie, our itinerent, homeless, cross dresser can run for mayor in every election and actually gets a bunch of votes!

This is leslie!!!!!!!!!!

I forgot who asked what part of CA I am from. The answer: I started in Redwood City, went to high school in San Jose, went to college at UC Davis and Sacramento State, and have lived all over the pennisula and Santa Clara County. I also owned a home near Sacramento at one point. I moved here from Los Gatos. I still have family, including my oldest daughter in that area, and my best friend whose the psuedo dub (meaning she feels free to judge my man as an apostate but doesn't come remotely close to living by the rules herself).

Are you moving to the Austin area? If so, PM me and I'll help you sort out which of the gorgeous neighborhoods you might like (most of Austin is pretty and safe but some parts have better schools, views or different personalities).