by seattleniceguy 39 Replies latest jw friends
In holly's good-bye thread, Quotes mentioned that he felt that some people were better off in high-control groups. I've heard othes say similar things.
But I have a difficult time with this. Is it not true that high-control groups stiffle a person's emotional and intellectual development? What is life if not an opportunity to learn and grow? If a high-control group hinders this, how can we say that anyone would be better off in it? Better off than what?
What do you think?
SNG
It seems that some people like having their major decisions made for them, and also like having a lot of their thinking done for them.
That authority figure in their lives gives them a sense of security. They want someone else at the driver's wheel.
Without that, they might sense that they're hopelessly lost.
Some people do get some positive change in their life through the discipline that these groups instill, perhaps putting crime or drug addiction behind them (at least temporarily). But there's a trade-off. A sense of gratefulness to the group that helped "improve" someone's life can lead them into serving the leaders of that group. Are they THEN better off?
It seems that some people like having their major decisions made for them, and also like having a lot of their thinking done for them
I'd agree, as well as the comfort of rituals. No thought required, just go to the meetings, out in service, etc. and Jehovah/Allah/Stalin approves of you. If it's Tuesday, it must be TMS/Service meeting. Some I think like the comfort of performing the ritual by rote.
I think low self-esteem and lack of self-confidence comes into play in that some feel their decisions or thoughts must always be wrong, therefore it is better to rely on someone else.
It seems that some people like having their major decisions made for them, and also like having a lot of their thinking done for themI'd agree, as well as the comfort of rituals. No thought required, just go to the meetings, out in service, etc. and Jehovah/Allah/Stalin approves of you. If it's Tuesday, it must be TMS/Service meeting. Some I think like the comfort of performing the ritual by rote. I think low self-esteem and lack of self-confidence comes into play in that some feel their decisions or thoughts must always be wrong, therefore it is better to rely on someone else.
I'd have to agree, on most levels anyhow. The majority of witnesses (not all, my in-laws and their friends are not like this) I have met here also prefer things black and white - they want the rules, they want to know exactly what they should and shouldn't do - to the point of saying they "wish there was no such thing as conscience matters" because that leaves them too much of a gray area. That's very telling, in my opinion.
I think they feel better off . . . I'm not sure that equals better off. I see some people feel better off driving a Ford and I'm not sure they're better off doing that either.
I understand that some people may be more comfortable with following orders than with thinking for themselves. But my question was whether people are actually better off in a high-control group. More comfortable does not necessarily have anything to do with better off.
Sure, some people join high-control groups and quit bad habits like abuse of alcohol and drugs. But there are other ways to do that, ones that do not involve virtual lobotomies. So again I ask, is anyone truly better off in a high-control group?
SNG
Yikes, SNG is actually reading my posts?
Now I have to defend my statements!
OK, seriously, you've raised some great points, SNG. For most people (like, say, 99.99999% of the population) HCGs are stifling and life-robbing. But, as Gopher and Big Text metnioned, some people seem to need to be told what to do. I forget where I heard it, perhaps the movie Shawshank Redemption, that some ex-cons don't do well after being released, because they need to be told when to wake and when to eat and when to shower. True, in that example, it is a learned behaviour, a conditioned response. But what if someone, say, either through nature (genetics) or nurture (upbringing) has this type of disposition developed when the are a child/teen? By the time they reach adulthood, they will be looking for a life experience which you and I find stifling.
Now, does that mean the such a person couldn't, with proper education and therapy, learn to live in a non-stifling environment? I think they could learn to live in a more free situation. But who is going to do that work, especially when the "victim" themself doesn't want the help?
Put another way: some people always wear their seat belt, while other jump off of bridges with just a tiny parachute or bungee cord. And both will say that they act this way because they cherish life. Go figure.
I think my note to Holly was mostly based on my own frustration: how could anyone see "the truth about the truth", have over 300 posts here, and still want to join JWs??? I was grasping to find a reason, or at least an excuse. I've got to remember to treat this like stopping a dangerous viral propagation: you can't save everyone, just try to protect most. For some, it's already too late.
~Quotes, of the "better off at the Playboy Mansion" class
(edited to clarify 4th paragraph point)
they want the rules, they want to know exactly what they should and shouldn't do - to the point of saying they "wish there was no such thing as conscience matters" because that leaves them too much of a gray area. That's very telling, in my opinion.
I also agree with Chris' post, and the idea of having everything placed before them as children in pre-school. Your comment RS, is true on two counts;
1) They know that when the WTS says its a conscience matter---they damn well better read between any and all lines that Mother has written! JWs are led to believe that they are using their conscience, but bear in mind all the sly terms like "a THINKING Christian would", or, a "MATURE person would" do this or that---and conscience now becomes "must"!
2)They don't want the responsibility of deciding for themselves if something is right or wrong for them. They want a road map from point A to point B.
Annie
I understand that some people may be more comfortable with following orders than with thinking for themselves. But my question was whether people are actually better off in a high-control group. More comfortable does not necessarily have anything to do with better off.Sure, some people join high-control groups and quit bad habits like abuse of alcohol and drugs. But there are other ways to do that, ones that do not involve virtual lobotomies. So again I ask, is anyone truly better off in a high-control group?
Good point of distinction. I agree completely. They may feel better off, but that does not mean they are truly better off.
As another example: a heroine junkie will feel better off after their daily "hit". Of course, the truly better off solution is to get off the drugs. But that is a painful proposition to the junkie. Its easier to stay hooked rather than go through the process of "feeling sick".
Hhhmmm... reversing my own analogy, I guess that means I'm saying that some people are better off hooked on heroine rather than kicking the habit. Suddenly my position doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense!
~Quotes, of the "hooked on JWD" class
like "a THINKING Christian would", or, a "MATURE person would" do this or that---and conscience now becomes "must"!
This is often taken a compliment to the individual that they are considered thinking mature persons and so will of course go along with what is clearly expected. Or, they risk being considered or considering themselves as un-thinking or immature. So there is no room for the individual to allow questions which they might normally have.
