Posts by FirstInLine

25

Which would you do? Either? Neither? Both?

by onacruse in

a thought experiment:.

scene a: imagine you're at the controls of a trolley and the brakes have failed.

you're approaching a fork in the track at top speed.

FirstInLine

Scene A: Imagine you're at the controls of a trolley and the brakes have failed. You're approaching a fork in the track at top speed. On the left side, 5 rail workers are fixing the track. One the right side, there is 1 worker. If you do nothing, the trolley will bear left and kill the 5. The only way to save the 5 is for you to steer to the right...which will certainly kill the 1.

Fate has delivered a cruel hand to the 5 workers. Fate has not done so for the 1. If I switch the track I am altering that one person's destiny to his demise when he would otherwise not have been harmed. I have no right to do that. I would let the 5 die. 1 life is as important as 5 and fate dealt a blow to the 5.

Scene B: Now, imagine you're watching the runaway trolley from a footbridge. This time there is no fork in the track, but the 5 workers are there, facing certain death. You're standing next to a really big guy, and you know that if you sneak up and push him off the footbridge and into the path of the trolley, his body will stop the trolley and save the 5 men.

Of course I would do nothing. It is roughly the same scenario although I am sure some idiot in his Ivory tower at Harvard would probably say that in scene A its ok to kill the 1 guy and in scene B its not.

42

Cross vs. Stake: Does it REALLY friggin' matter?

by Funchback in

when did the wts become so infatuated with the cross vs. stake theory?

did they come up with this theory in order to say, "see?

we teach the truth!

FirstInLine

Even when I was a JW I didnt think he died on a pole. I thought that was ridiculous.

42

Cross vs. Stake: Does it REALLY friggin' matter?

by Funchback in

when did the wts become so infatuated with the cross vs. stake theory?

did they come up with this theory in order to say, "see?

we teach the truth!

FirstInLine

The WTBTS is stigmatizing the foresmost recognizable and used symbol of Christianity with lies. In that sense yes it is an important issue. Whats so funny is that the WTS through its history had this reckless way of speaking with dire confidence concerning things that they were using simply to cast a distinction. They have begun to quietly put down the issue of the Cross.

I have read in more recent WTS publications that they quietly state its controversial and no one really knows what he died on.

Well he died on a cross-like object. His arms were certainly outstretched not directly over his head. The Romans executed people with crosses.

60

The Truth About Christianity - Give your views

by Sirona in

ex- jehovahs witnesses often reject christianity based on what they were taught by the wts.

when i left jws it was difficult for me to see what christianity was all about - the non-jw version.

every time i picked up a bible, i could see the watchtower interpretation jumping out at me.

FirstInLine

Love_Truth,

I strongly disagree. The bulk of the Scriptural evidence points to a created Christ. Christ’s “deity” and the “implicit trinity” were decided on in 325 AD at the convening of the Council of Nicea,

I strongly disagree. For starters the scriptures say the Son created all that was created. the Council of Nicea did not decide on an implicit Trinity. That was an explicit Trinity.

http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-frames-start-page-SYBTT.htm

In the emd God will judge us as individuals, and it can be argued that either belief (true Monotheism or Trinitarian) is acceptable, though I find much more evidence for the former.

If you knew what the word Trinity meant you would not imply it is false monotheism. Monotheism means one god as you know and a Trinity is certainly not more than one God. In fact preserving the Christ as the One Lord, king and a little god is by denifition polytheism.

Disagree. IMO, It is for Satan, his demons, and humans too. I believe hell is simply a state of non- existence. Knowing what the nature of hell is, is not necessary for our salvation.

The state of non-existence is debateable for humans but IMO not for the devil and his angels. Its a place that was created for them.

I do not believe hell is a literal place

I couldnt find where I said that but if I did there is a typo there somewhere or the context was removed.

I agree, but I would add that, IMO, all “Christian” (and non-Christian) religions, sects, divisions, etc, are all Apostate, part of Babylon the Great, as they teach doctrines of men side by side with Scripture, and make them essentially equal.

You are the lone bearer of truth I take it. Truly amazing that Christ was unable to preserve a Church and that the devil was strong enough to overcome his attempts.

Yes, it is faith in Christ that saves. As for the “ selected pages of catholic theologians” comment, that is your opinion, not a fact. The canonicity of the 66 books of the Bible, as well as evidence of their divine inspiration abounds. I frankly find this particular comment of yours ignorant and self-aggrandizing, no more, no less.

I meant to show that Christ is to be the object of our faith not the bible. Yes I was showing the difference in rank between Christ and the bible. Yes, the bible was canonized by men and they debated what should be included in the canon.

Another pompous, arrogant comment of yours, FirstInLine. Do you know the “ the true Doctrines of Christianity”?

If you say so (pompous)... I know some of them. Lets see... The Deity of Christ, the Trinity, salvation by grace through faith, the resurrection of the body, the physical resurrection of Christ, the forgiveness of sins...

Answer: absolutely not. Nor can you prove that you do, no more than anyone else can irrefutably prove their conclusions on what ” the true Doctrines of Christianity ” are.

well what about this little comment of yours?

I agree, but I would add that, IMO, all “Christian” (and non-Christian) religions, sects, divisions, etc, are all Apostate, part of Babylon the Great, as they teach doctrines of men side by side with Scripture, and make them essentially equal.

I will admit you were careful to qualify it with IMO, but that would be like me saying IMO you and all people that believe what you believe are devil worshippers and are so blinded by the devil that you gladly worship the devil and dont know it. The IMO doesnt really soften the blow does it? BTW I am not calling you a devil worshipper just using it for demonstration purposes because it is roughly equivalent to what you were saying.

60

The Truth About Christianity - Give your views

by Sirona in

ex- jehovahs witnesses often reject christianity based on what they were taught by the wts.

when i left jws it was difficult for me to see what christianity was all about - the non-jw version.

every time i picked up a bible, i could see the watchtower interpretation jumping out at me.

FirstInLine

I just lost my entire reply to Abaddon and have to retype it now. What torture.

I wouldn't call that god. That would be an alien, even if it is one that conforms to Clarke's maxim about sufficiently advanced technologies

No, I did not say he/they did not create the universe.

Which is my idea of a monster,

good for you.

or at least (to be precise) my expectation of the character of god as someone raised in a Christian culture is that as I would find such inaction on part of an omnipotent entity immoral, and I as am made in god's image, then god would also find it immoral. Of course, those are enculturated expectations and god might actually have more in common with Quetzalcoati.

why are you on the computer and not spending all your time and money in your selfless fight to end human suffering?

And why do you say this? Adding 'logically' to a statement doesn't add to its validity unless you can back it up in the manner you say you can.

There is more than one sort of logic and I was not asked to prove what I believe just to state what I believe.

The word I would use is monster;

good

if a father could save his children from death but didn't as part of a game/plan/because they're corporeal existance is irrelevent/insert other sophistry, then many people would call him a monster. As it is below so it is above.

lets hear your resume

And why would god have a religion? Are you postulating an endless array of gods worshipping the one above them in the chain and being worshipped by the one directly below them?

Is that what I postulated?

You have been describing your viewpoint as logical, I'd love to see your reasoning on this.

No. Reasoning wont satisfy you. Evidence wont satisfy you. You want proof and according to your guidelines at that.

Er... yes, but if it were all made up then the lack of logic and the incomprehensibility would also be explicable on account of it being (drum roll) made up. How do you exclude this equivalently valid and simpler explanation for what I term ineffability (lack of understandability/logic)?

Natuarlly some one as logical as me would realise the possibility of it all being made up. You only want to consider the possibilities that make you happy though.

You are pre-supposing that a religion which 'made sense' would not be divine.

No I have given people something to ponder. Its not meant to be an arguement.

Explain your reasoning. Gravity and other demonstrably real phenomena 'make sense' in their everyday expression in the world. If god is a real phenomena why does it differ from other real phenomena by not making sense in the real world?

Replace "gravity" with the Higgs Field and your point loses merit. Is it logical to believe in the Higgs Field?

You ask a question which assumes I'll agree. I don't. Show me the logic of your assertion that our condition is mysterious..

People argue why we are here, where we came and where we are going endlessly. Are you saying you have found the answers?

Yes, this was pointed out a long time ago by people who got to thinking if god's all powerful why does he need, want, or be remotely interested in the worship of humans. It's a good reason to suspect the entire religion thing is made up.

Notice I accept that possiblity while when I pose similar ones you deride me?

You then said in the second post; the first one was nice, the second arsey; bi-polar today?;

No. My second post was my response to your latest one. I was composing what you call my first when you posted that one. My first one was nice because I am nice. My second one was in response to you being rude.

Calling someone insane for asking them to clarify

I did not call you insane and you did not ask to clarify. You said It seemed I was claiming to have absolute proof. After I so considerately and carefully crafted my wording to not sound as though I made that claim it REALLY pissed me off.

If anyone's being reactionary, it's you with your language ('insane' and what was the other one... oh, yeah - a jerk).

You started it. You know you started it. This thread has recorded who started it. You are being a TROLL.

You miss the metaphor; you were saying god could be unaware of us; I was agreeing with you that this could be so, and giving the example of us as wood shavings on a carpenter's floor who THINK they are part of god's plan but whom god is unaware of. The achievement of the shavings is not relevent to the metaphor.

I did not miss the metaphor (analogy). Its a faulty analogy and I demonstrated that. The achievement of the shavings is relevent to exposing the metaphor (analogy) as faulty.

Yeah, one of the reasons we'd either fight (verbally) like cat and dog in real-life or really get on well in real-life; you're opinionated too... didn't you know?

We were asked to say what we believe. I bent over backwards to accomodate people like you. But that wasnt good enough. You had to interrogate me. Your precious radical anti-theism was somehow threatened or you just couldnt stand to have some one think that their theistic position might some how be supported by logic and reason. And out you come acting like a little TROLL.

Saying "I believe there is a God with a strong conviction of logic." is implying that there is something objectively determinable with regard to your claim.

Uh oh, some one thinks his claim for belief in God is "objectively determinable", sound the Alarm!!!!!!!! RELEASE THE HOUNDS!!!

In Britain there's an expression; all talk and no trousers.

I defer to my previous statement: Im not going to bother. You are obviously intelligent and if you are so willing to argue against it so passionately then what would be the point? .... My frustration and your delite. Im not going to give you the satisfaction.

You are not going to consider what I have to say, you havent already. You are just convinced you are right. I dont care. Good for you knowing you are right. I hope you have found comfort in your little box of rightness.

My mind is way more open than yours and until you prove that you care about more than being right there is no point to debating you. You can only lose a debate against a closed mind and I dont like debate to begin with. I prefer the free sharing of ideas.

Hahaha. Yeah... make out it's MY fault, of course... how weak...

you see what I mean? This is your mentality. sad and pathetic.

If you are unwilling to back up your claims about the logic of god's existence, then don't be surprised if your claims are viewed in the light of your inability to defend them.

Do you see how you come across? Why would some one as rational as myself be baited like that? You dont respect me.

defend what? Why must I defend? I have accepted your opinion that there is no god. Have I derided you for it? If you dont realise the atheist position can be logical as well as the theist position being logical then you dont know what logic is and are therefore illogical.

60

The Truth About Christianity - Give your views

by Sirona in

ex- jehovahs witnesses often reject christianity based on what they were taught by the wts.

when i left jws it was difficult for me to see what christianity was all about - the non-jw version.

every time i picked up a bible, i could see the watchtower interpretation jumping out at me.

FirstInLine

Sirona,

Salvation by nothing other than the grace of God is taught especially in the epistles of Paul.

Romans 4:5 -- explicit, Romans 6:23 inducive, Ephesians 2:8-9.

The problem for JWs is they are taught to read the same few verses that seem to contradict that to exaustion. So in the end they dont believe salvation is gifted without working for it.

60

The Truth About Christianity - Give your views

by Sirona in

ex- jehovahs witnesses often reject christianity based on what they were taught by the wts.

when i left jws it was difficult for me to see what christianity was all about - the non-jw version.

every time i picked up a bible, i could see the watchtower interpretation jumping out at me.

FirstInLine

Sirona,

I have to go to bed. I will gladly answer your questions later today.

60

The Truth About Christianity - Give your views

by Sirona in

ex- jehovahs witnesses often reject christianity based on what they were taught by the wts.

when i left jws it was difficult for me to see what christianity was all about - the non-jw version.

every time i picked up a bible, i could see the watchtower interpretation jumping out at me.

FirstInLine

Abaddon:

It seems unlike Love_Truth you are claiming that you have absolute proof, and that it's not merely your opinion we are dealing with here. Is that correct?

Are you insane? When did I ever say anything that was absolute? You are being REACTIONARY

It's what I call the wood shavings model; we are imagining ourselves part of something, but we're no more important in the scheme of things than wood shavings on a carpenters floor.

When your wood shavings take on the shape of bunny-rabbits going hippity-hop, reproducing and building skyskrapers, thermonuclear warheads, colliders... well you may have missed something in what exactly consitutes a bona fide "shaving."

The proof is all around? I would love for you to show me the proof in a seperate thread. I utterly disagree that people are looking for supernatural proof; well, some maybe want the lightning bolts etc., but a book that said it was inspired and tested as inspired would not be supernatural, but would be proof. But you say there's 'proof all around,' so I will await your thread on the proofs of god with great interest (although I will continue to breathe whilst I wait; you might be different but I've been told by people that they'd prove god before and am still waiting on them).

You sound real stuck-up. You are also hijacking. You almost sound offended by the mere fact that I believe there is a God with a strong conviction of logic. I am not going to even try to open your mind for you THAT WOULD BE AN IMPOSSIBLE FEAT. I would love for you to have an open mind.

In which case god is irrelevent to human life...

Did it sound as though I was implying otherwise. Thank you for making sure the reader understands the intent of my comments. I am glad I have such a witty editor deciphering my words for the untrained masses of bafoons that may have figured out what was so obvious to begin with.

In which case I think god's a monster and will gladly spit in his eye should I have the opportunity.

Way to give someone that could really f*** you up the benefit of the doubt. You sound like such a little shit. You have such a bitter and closed mind it is really sick. Have you given up all your possesions and spent all of your time helping to end human suffering? I await your answer and trust you are not some hypocrite.

Anyway, I'll be interested in your answers and in the thread on the proofs of god all around us...

Im not going to bother. You are obviously intelligent and if you are so willing to argue against it so passionately then what would be the point? .... My frustration and your delite. Im not going to give you the satisfaction. Do you see the difference between yourself and Sirona?

60

The Truth About Christianity - Give your views

by Sirona in

ex- jehovahs witnesses often reject christianity based on what they were taught by the wts.

when i left jws it was difficult for me to see what christianity was all about - the non-jw version.

every time i picked up a bible, i could see the watchtower interpretation jumping out at me.

FirstInLine

Abaddon,

You must understand that Christianity (among other religions) is an irrational arbitrary religion to begin with. At its core is the idea that human beings in their current state are not good enough for God to accept. If you want to be accepted by God all you have to do is do exactly as some guys who claimed to hear god's voice say and believe the things they tell you. Then because of what God has done through the second person of his being you can be made acceptable and not be punished for the things you deserve to be punished for.

There are similar occurrences in the world. For insantce the United States sends in the military to help some people defeat their tyrants but not all. Many populations are allowed to be wiped out almost entirely while we bend over backwards to help others. But we still do it like that and we are still on top.

In addition keep in mind that if there is a God(s), and I believe there is: he/they either cannot do anything to help us and therefore probably did not create us or did create us, can help us when we are in need but doesnt. I think the latter is true logically. This tells me God is a very complicated mysterious fellow no matter whose theology newsletter you subscribe to. Continuing with that train of thought, if God did have a religion, a strange esoteric religion with arbitrary ordinances and rites would not be too far out of the question. The illogic of Christianity may be one of the better selling points of it since a logical mind would see the illogic in God's actions (or lack there of) very quickly.

I dont think that God is very understandable to begin with. His motives cannot be logically considered.

Would a nice little cookie cutter religion with all the anwers and no mystery that fits neatly in a box seem more divine or man-made and Disneyesque?

Is not our condition mysterious to begin with? Is not religion itself a rather strange and mysterious way for the Ultimate Authority to govern?

60

The Truth About Christianity - Give your views

by Sirona in

ex- jehovahs witnesses often reject christianity based on what they were taught by the wts.

when i left jws it was difficult for me to see what christianity was all about - the non-jw version.

every time i picked up a bible, i could see the watchtower interpretation jumping out at me.

FirstInLine

Sirona,

I appreciate your questions.

I am of two minds;

Do you believe that God will destroy non-christians in a battle of armageddon? If not, what is armageddon according to the bible?

No, this idea is unbiblical.

the 14th Chapter of Zechariah is one of the best areas of the Bible to find such information. Armageddon is a battle in which Jesus divinely intervenes to prevent the destruction of Israel from surrounding armies that would surely annihilate her. Your religion has nothing to do with what happens to you in this battle. A Christian attacking Israel would be just as much and enemy as a Muslim or Buddhist. Its a limited engagement in the middle East.

Do you believe that we continue after death?

Christian mind: Yes, soul sleep is not explicitly stated in the bible. The idea of being completely destroyed and being rebuilt is illogical when one considers the logistics of cloning. Many passages in the bible say humans live on in an altered state beyond the death of the body.

Scientific mind: Probably. I believe logically that there is a God and divine interevention created life as well as the diversity of life. It is only logical for me to assume he would have something to say, if not now then after we die.

If so, where do we "go"?

Christian mind: If you are atoned of sin then you go to heaven, beneath the "alter" and await the ressurection of the body.

Scientific mind: I cannot logically answer that. Dimensional coordinates are an intrinsic property to OUR universe.

and do our actions in life determine where we go?

Christian mind: I seriously doubt it but I can hope. We are certainly judged by our actions though.

Do we have salvation by faith or by works? Or both? Or none?

Christian mind: Faith alone by grace alone.

Is God separate from us? Or within us? Both?

Christian mind: God is greatly separate and separated from us.

Scientific mind: Unknown, could be any of the three, for now.

I'm personally very accepting of other religions / beleifs. I accept the right of anyone to decide that they are Christian. The only trouble I've ever had with Christians is that they don't always accept me and my beliefs. I am pagan, and they think that I have to be Christian (the exact reason I'm not sure. "to be saved" whatever that actually means). I'm not bashing anyone - honestly that is the only problem I've had with some Christians.

People that refuse to think rationally are really annoying to me, but it is also understandable. Its so hard to believe in the unbelievable to begin with that people dont want to complicate it by having an open mind.