Under74 I didn't think you were and certainly wasn't taking offense! :)
I think it's just varying degrees of resolution within ourselves and everyone's in a different place with it. I posted what I did so you'd get the perspective of the other shoe. Or the other foot. Or something.
I think I need more coffee. !
Anyway, sometimes it's only by saying this stuff "out loud" that it can be acknowledged and then settled.
CeriseRose
JoinedPosts by CeriseRose
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34
JWs, ex-JWs and Non-JWs
by CeriseRose ini'm going to preface these comments with a disclaimer: in no way am i meaning these observations to be inflamatory, exclusionary, or to devalue anyone.
i believe everyone has a right to their opinion, and observations, and to share themwithin the terms of the board.
i also believe that there is learning to be found from a variety of sources.
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CeriseRose
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34
JWs, ex-JWs and Non-JWs
by CeriseRose ini'm going to preface these comments with a disclaimer: in no way am i meaning these observations to be inflamatory, exclusionary, or to devalue anyone.
i believe everyone has a right to their opinion, and observations, and to share themwithin the terms of the board.
i also believe that there is learning to be found from a variety of sources.
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CeriseRose
I guess the resentment you feel toward converts is kind of like the flip side of the envy I used to feel as a JW of those who "were lucky enough" to be raised as a JW, in a family full of JWs. "They" had the history, the long lineage, the family ties. "They" didn't have to juggle worldly(TM) family and holidays, or divided loyalties and the constant struggle of being an "orphan" in the truth(TM). My sister (still a JW) married into such a family...in great part I could make the step to completely break from JWs because I knew that she'd stay in but she'd have some family for support still.
Of course, now that I'm out, I think wow, I have family still to go to, who aren't judgmental and don't care that I *was* a JW. I also think that my transition out has been a LOT easier than someone's who was raised in...I think that I can "fall back" to my "normal" self whereas someone raised in has to completely redefine and usually without huge amounts of emotional or mental support. It's not an easy road for anyone, but those who don't have a paradigm of life as a non-JW are essentially starting from scratch.
I think people that converted (like me! and yes, there was a choice, but for a variety of reasons, people do make that choice willingly...it's just by the time they find out what's really going on, there's emotional involvement just like with anyone, raised in or not...at least that's my experience) can relate to both sides of the coin. But a non-JW talking to a born-in JW must be like an earthling talking to a martian in terms of relation-ability! -
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JWs, ex-JWs and Non-JWs
by CeriseRose ini'm going to preface these comments with a disclaimer: in no way am i meaning these observations to be inflamatory, exclusionary, or to devalue anyone.
i believe everyone has a right to their opinion, and observations, and to share themwithin the terms of the board.
i also believe that there is learning to be found from a variety of sources.
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CeriseRose
I'm going to preface these comments with a disclaimer: In NO WAY am I meaning these observations to be inflamatory, exclusionary, or to devalue ANYONE. I believe everyone has a right to their opinion, and observations, and to share themwithin the terms of the board. I also believe that there is learning to be found from a variety of sources.
So that being said: I am just curious on other people's "take" on this, as I've seen it not only on this board but others.
"You were never a JW so you can't understand."
"I know (live with/was married to) a JW (etc.) and this is how it is."
I was just reading a thread where one poster made comment on the fact that another poster had never been a JW. I'm not getting into that, but it sparked a thought in my mind.
Personally, I believe that no matter how well informed a person is about something, that in most cases having the experience themself is the ONLY way to truly "know." On a different message board there were a few non-JWs who were very opinionated about things and truly believed they "knew" as well as a JW or ex-JW about the religion.
Unrelated example: I watched my parents pass away; sat in the room and watched them breathe their last, after sitting for hour upon hour as they declined. Now I know that most people have experienced someone dying in their life, even someone close. I had, and figured I "got" the whole thing. But that specific experience of being there while they died is quite unique, like nothing I'd ever experienced, and truly, don't believe that is something that can ever be fully described so someone could truly understand that experience without having gone through it themself.
I believe that being a JW is like that. It is a cult; we can all be aware of what makes up a cult, how it operates, some of the repurcussions, etc. But unless you've *been* in a cult, it's very hard to 'relate' to it on a deeply personal level. Now that's not to say that peripheral knowledge that non-JWs can provide doesn't have value or benefit, especially for those who've been in the cult. I think it's important for transition that there are people in a place like this that have an "intimate knowledge" of the workings but never were "in": they provide a link between the old and new life that can be a great reality check.
However, sometimes it seems that people here resent or dislike the opinions of those who weren't in. Sometimes, it seems, even to me, that whose who weren't a JW cannot really relate in a constructive way. I sense a certain amount of frustration from some, which comes out in their posts.
There is similar tone of frustration between JWs "in" and those who've left, in varying degrees.
Does anyone else see this happening? Is there a way to ever be past that? I mean, for those of us who were JWs, we were all taught to be exclusionary and are all in varying degrees of "sorting ourselves out" from that. Or is this all a long-lasting mark that will always be there.
Or is it just plain old human nature, the subject matter notwithstanding, one of experience vs non-experience?
I welcome your comments, from everyone. -
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Why do many religious people dislike non-religious people?
by Elsewhere ini've noticed that usually when someone who is very religious finds out that i am an atheist, they become very agitated even though i never actually said anything negative about their religion.. are they embarrassed?.
do they think i am condemning them?.
do they see me as a threat?.
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CeriseRose
Well, in the scenario you're describing, it's probably less "dislike" and more that they have no way to relate to it, and could be preparing for a huge disagreement. Religion or lack thereof is an age-old "hot topic" and is often such a source of controversy. That could be the threat.
It's kind of like telling someone you're a creationist when everyone around you is an evolutionist. Inevitably someone is going to say something that could spark a disagreement, so everyone is on tenterhooks.
It's either that or you're just plain scary. :P (couldn't resist)
What I'd like to know is why each side of the coin (religious or no) feel the need to "share" their beliefs. (Of course, being an ex-JW, it's a highly hypocritical thing of me to ask, seeing as I did my share of sharing. DOH!) Now, I know that not everyone does, but I think that's always a factor when you're talking these subjects that someone, even the most open minded, will ask "why don't you," or "why do you" and in the ensuing "information sharing" opinions become fact and emotions start running high. -
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CeriseRose
Actually it was a naturopath who told me, but I do agree that there are many JWs who seem to have all the answers regarding health matters.
Mind you, so my boss also thinks she does and she's not a JW. Maybe it's just women. ;) LOL
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CeriseRose
Wow. Interestingly enough I was told to take "white willow bark" tincture for my ovarian cysts to relieve the pain...aspirin and ibuprofen (even in prescription strengths) didn't touch the pain. The tincture did.
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The NEED for Acknowledgement and Validation..what do you think?
by LyinEyes ini was flipping thru the channels a few minutes ago and the oprah show was on with an interview with tatum o'neal .
i havent watched all of the show but from what i can get from it so far,,,,,,tatum has a bad relationship with her father , she has written a book about it all.
she and oprah were talking about what could make her have peace with her father and so on .
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CeriseRose
I agree that it's very natural to need that...especially in a situation where you're being disfellowshipped or have left. The place you need to "vindicate" yourself and "set matters straight" is no longer open to you to do so.
For myself, I've been "out" for a few months, I'm settled within myself, my life. Why does it hurt that they label me apostate? Why does it hurt that all I ever asked for is understanding and they gave none? These people mean nothing to me anymore, not on any real level. But I want them to acknowledge their part, their failure to support me, their inability to show the love they said they would. I don't think I will feel validated until I have those words, those expressions, from those who abused my trust and my faith.
And there are many who have had it much worse than me, who've lost more, who've bled more, who've suffered more physical and emotional pain at the hands of their abusers...and they go unacknowledged and unvalidated too. Cast aside and not just forgotten, but villified after the fact.
That's why I think places like this are so important. Not only the connection, but the telling and re-telling of our stories...and to hear from someone that we're okay and good.
Acknowledging that we need that makes us strong. {{{{HUGS}}}}
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Are JWs "Approval Whores"?
by Scully induring a quiet moment at work the other night, i picked up a back issue of o magazine, one of the current quintessentially authoritative journalistic voices of the modern north american woman.
it was the december 2003 issue, and i was intrigued by the title of the article: "the halo effect" which promised to examine the condition of 'being too good' for one's own good.
the preamble contained the phrase "self-sacrificing" and i was immediately zapped by that standard jw buzz-word and the article's suggestion that being "self-sacrificing" is not all it's cracked up to be.. you can read the article here: stop seeking approval.
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CeriseRose
Thanks for posting this. There are things in it that I'm still working on (they were pre-JW and only got exacerbated by being a JW) and this is a great 'tool' for me.
Two thumbs up!
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What kind of JW response do you think I'll get?
by Bubbamar inin my moms last letter she stated that me, my sister and her should all just "move on" meaning put our hurts and anger behind us and work towards having better relationships.
however, in the same letter she clarified that disfellowshipping is "discipline" and she intends to continue shunning me.
so i wrote back asking her what "moving on" means for her.
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CeriseRose
I didn't take any offense myself...just wanted to clarify my position on the matter. :)
I think that's what gets me the most...that I left without a blemish, and just because I don't buy in to 150% of the WTS crap now, I'm labelled (and apostate no less...I haven't said so much as BOO on doctrine to anyone...it makes me wish I'd blasted my sister with all the info I had now).
The gossip, the backstabbing, the judgmental attitude is exactly what drove me out in the first place...and the same people who did it to me then are doing it to me now. Only now I spend a considerable amount of my energy ignoring them. It's not easy -- knowing people are slandering you behind your back, and the only way I could confront any of them would mean outing my one JW friend who still does talk to me. I won't do that to her, she's been nothing but a friend in all this.
It hurts that people who I once considered as close to me as family can so easily discard me...they did it before I left and now they abuse my character and I am powerless to stop it. So they keep pouring salt in the wound. All I can do is move on and remind myself that they're the ones with the defect, they're the ones who are missing out on life.
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COFFFFFEEEEE!!!!!!
by Soledad ini'm so thrilled i bought my stove top espresso maker today!!!
yipeeeeee!!.
i've been looking for these for months!.
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CeriseRose
When I was in the UK, Starbucks saved me. hehe
I love coffee. I'm actually working on a document "The Tao of Coffee" with a friend. If it's ever done I'll share.
My fiancé is allergic to coffee. Sadness. (However, more for me! Yay!)
The funniest thing is I've actually taught him Starbucks lingo (so he can order his hot chocolate when he gets my coffee...hehe)