Posts by artful

20

Comments You Will Not Hear at the 1-12-03 WT Study

by blondie in

wt comments you will not hear at the wt study 1/12/03

12/1/02 watchtower page 13. enjoy personal study of gods word.

psalm 77:12. psalm 77 (nlt).

artful

Another great post Blondie!
You wrote: "Yes, JWs have to be told to follow along in their Bibles. Too many COs are peering out at the audiences at the KH and the assemblies and see no Bible pages flipping. They bring this up again in this same article."

Having attended a convention last February with my wife, this comment particularly struck me. I would like to offer my personal experience as to why this is such a problem in the JW community.

In my former life as a devout dub, I had been in the habit of underlining key scriptures in my Bible. So, during this convention day (my first meeting in 4 years), as I carefully followed along in my old Bible, I began to notice an interesting pattern. Without exception every scripture used by every speaker that day was something that I had underlined during my previous years of JW Bible study. This really impressed upon me how relentlessly the WTS regurgitates the same "proof" scriptures year after year. During the entire day, if I closed my eyes I could just as easily have been listening to a convention from 1991, or 1981! It's no wonder the JWs get bored of following along and looking up the same scriptures time and time again. The WTS (unlike Jesus) really offer no "refreshment" for their flock!

Cheers
Artful

Edited by - artful on 10 January 2003 10:44:3

5

WT: "Now you can worship God in your own w...

by Gerard in

"can i worship god in my own way?

yes, throughout history humans have felt a need to worship.

for centuries most have turned to organized religion to fill that need.

artful

I really like the way this article ends...(he says holding his sides with laughter)....

"There are about six million of Jehovah's Witnesses, in 235 countries, who have made such a study. They volunteer their time in order to share with others what they have learned. The home Bible study course they offer without charge has helped millions to find a faith that is more than a fad or a matter of taste. The true, pure Christianity presented in the Bible is not just another religion. It represents the truth about God and his purposes. So why settle for less?"

So Yes, you can worship God in your own way...as long as your own way is the same as OUR WAY!
Why settle for less...isn't that a slogan used by a tampon manufacturer!!?? There may be some copyright infringement here!

Artful

28

JW's -- Is Jesus your Mediator?

by UnDisfellowshipped in

the watchtower society teaches that jesus christ is the mediator only for the "anointed" jw's and that the "anointed" jw's are the "mediators" for all of the "other sheep".. the bible says jesus is the one mediator for all men:.

1st timothy 2:5: for there is one god, and one mediator between god and men, the man christ jesus

artful

Good Post UD. This is one of the biggest problems that I have with JW theology!
In response to 1Tim 2:5, here is the WTS official position:
"The people of all nation who have the hope of everlasting life on earth benefit even now from Jesus' services. Though he is not their legal Mediator, for they are not in the new covenant, he is their means of approaching Jehovah." WT August 15, 1989 p 31

Although the WTS doesn't go so far as to say that the "anointed" are the mediators for the "great crowd", there is really no other conclusion to draw from their doctrine. Because, if Jesus is ONLY a mediator to God for the "anointed", then by extension, the "great crowd" must go through the "anointed" to Jesus who then acts as mediator to God.

Ironically, in this same article the WTS parallel the Law Covenant with the New Covenant to support their doctrine. However, when we analyze the Law Covenant we notice the following:
1. The Law Covenant was mediated by a priestly group (Levites).
2. ALL of Israel was under the Law Covenant NOT just the priestly class.
3. The Law Covenant was the ONLY arrangement that God provided for those who wanted to have his approval.

This then begs the questions:
1. "If the New Covenant replaced the Law Covenant who is the new mediator"
Answer: Jesus (1 Tim 2:5)
2. "If all of Israel was under the Law Covenant then why would ONLY a so-called priestly class (144K) be under the New Covenant?" and...
3. "If the New Covenant is the ONLY means that God has provided for our salvation and the "Great Crowd" are not "in" this Covenant, what OTHER arrangement (according to the scriptures) has God provided for them?
Answer: There is no other arrangement. We are either "in" the New Covenant or not.

Ask a JW question 3 and watch them squirm! I recently asked my brother (a devout dub) this question and he wasn't even aware that the WTS taught that Jesus is not their mediator! This is a very sad doctrine!!

Artful

Edited by - artful on 9 January 2003 13:15:1

35

Paradise: in Heaven or on Earth?

by artful in

the term "paradise earth" is one frequently used by the wts.

while researching the scriptural references to "paradise" (and the official wts explanation for each), i was surprised with what i found regarding the location of paradise.

these are the only three places that the word "paradise" can be found in the bible.. .

artful

Craig: Great stuff! I'll wait to hear more!! In reviewing the two references you cited, I wonder if this second one (1928) was actually a complete change in their doctrine taking precedence over the "conversion to spirits" after the 1000yrs printed in 1925. So in other words this would now mean that the "worthies" would no longer be spirit creatures at any point but would be resurrected to earth and that's it?
_____
Joseph: I have really enjoyed our discussions over the past few weeks on this, and a few other threads. I will download your book (do you mean the "christbody.doc" file) and read through it so I can get a better grasp on what your beliefs are.

Cheers
Artful

P.S. It's OK Joseph, I found the RTF version of your complete book.

Cheers
Artful

Edited by - artful on 8 January 2003 20:16:8

35

Paradise: in Heaven or on Earth?

by artful in

the term "paradise earth" is one frequently used by the wts.

while researching the scriptural references to "paradise" (and the official wts explanation for each), i was surprised with what i found regarding the location of paradise.

these are the only three places that the word "paradise" can be found in the bible.. .

artful

Craig: That is a VERY interesting bit of information.
I didn't realize that the WTS ever held the idea that these OT "worthies" would have a heavenly existence. In light of Rutherford building the "house of princes" for these OT men in California, I would think that they changed this doctrine shortly after this 1925 WT!

Thanks for posting it!
Artful

19

Old Testament Faithful in Heaven?

by artful in

the wts doctrine that the faithful men and women of old would have no place in heaven in god's kingdom has never really sat right with me.

i did some scriptural research on it and thought i would share it .

any comments would be appreciated.

artful

Joseph wrote:
You must show how the illustration suggests that idea and not just say it. Will you do that please?

Joseph, I'm sure you would concur that in all of Jesus' other illustrations he used situations and examples that his audience could relate to and had some "basis in reality". He never discussed things that were too abstract or without any earthly or heavenly counterpart. My point is that since his teaching method is consistent in all of his other illustrations there would be no reason to think that he would deviate from this method with his parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. This illustration if taken at "face value" is saying that Abraham is in heaven. So to "suggest" that this might have some basis in reality is really self-evident. I don't understand why you say I need to "show how the illustration suggests" that Abraham might have some place in heaven when the illustration itself says it!!?

________
Joseph wrote:
"The paradise, kingdom, Israel of God or New Jerusalem was not here when Paul wrote this. He could only appeal to Jesus who was sitting at Gods right hand in his day. We know that."

My point was not that Paul said the kingdom was here at that time, but that in Philippians 3:14 Paul indicates that his prize is to be received in heaven with Jesus (whenever it is that he is taken to be with Jesus).

_________
I agree with you comment on Hebrews, I was wrong to apply it that way.

_________
Joseph wrote: "The angels that will be with him will also be here for they are the holy ones he will raise for the purpose of administering this kingdom."

You lost me here - however, I referenced your explanation of this on another thread.
__________
Joseph wrote:
"Sitwith me on my throne is the throne of David that has always been here on earth. This is the location of the throne of Christ at that time.
Jesus will relocate His throne here to earth where it will also be called the throne of David."

Since you seem to acknowledge that Jesus throne is currently in heaven, could you please show me from this scriptures where it says that "Jesus will relocate his throne" here to earth.

Since David's throne on earth was merely an inferior symbol of the throne of God in heaven, couldn't the comment that Jesus would sit down on the throne of David be symbolic of him sitting down on the throne of God.

Also, the "throne" and the judging referred to in Revelation all take place "before" the "New Jerusalem" descends to earth and are clearly referred to as being in heaven:

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Artful

35

Paradise: in Heaven or on Earth?

by artful in

the term "paradise earth" is one frequently used by the wts.

while researching the scriptural references to "paradise" (and the official wts explanation for each), i was surprised with what i found regarding the location of paradise.

these are the only three places that the word "paradise" can be found in the bible.. .

artful

Joseph: I think the reason why as you say "so many people think that our Lord will come down to rule with non-human beings" is scriptures like the ones below which seem to suggest a change from a physical (natural) body to a spiritual one:

1Cor 15:
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[5] ; the last Adam, a lifegiving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit

Artful

23

The Watchtower says Jesus is a LIAR!

by UnDisfellowshipped in

here is big contradiction between the watchtower and the bible:.

the watchtower society says that jesus christ was resurrected as a "spirit creature" and that he no longer had his body because jehovah (the father) "zapped" his body out of existence.. what does the bible say?:.

john 2:18: the jews therefore answered him, "what sign do you show us, seeing that you do these things?".

artful

UD: Great post! Very interesting application of the WTS misunderstanding of Jesus' resurrection as it applies to Jesus prophecy - and I believe a correct use of the term "liars".
___________
Joseph: You have made some very good comments here, and I agree with your reasoning regarding Jesus resurrection in the flesh and spirit. A couple of questions/comments for you though:

What do you believe happened to Christ's body when he ascended to heaven? Did his ascension to heaven include both his material body and spirit (Logos)?

Also, a minor point regarding your antichrist teaching. I have read the scriptures where John writes of those who are considered "antichrist" and he seems to be addressing two issues):

1. Those who deny that Jesus was the Christ,
1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist; he denies the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3
but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

and
2. Those who acknowledge that Jesus was the Christ but deny that he came to the Earth in flesh.

2 John 1:7
Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

The first teaching is obviously "antichrist" but the second although more subtle is still considered antichrist. Some (like the Gnostics and Docetists) during John's time taught that the material world was all "corrupt" and therefore Christ did not come in the flesh but only "appeared" to be human, like a phantom. It appears that John was referring to these ones in his "antichrist" statements in 1st and 2nd John, not to the teaching that Christ had not "risen in the flesh".

I realize that this is a minor discrepancy, because of course if the Gnostics did not believe that Christ came in the flesh, then they would also not believe that he had risen in the flesh. However, since the WTS does teach that Christ came in the flesh, by "strict definition" (as written by John) could they really be scripturally labeled "antichrist" for not believing that Christ was "risen in the flesh"?

Artful

38

Were you born into the jw faith?

by nakedmvistar in

jw
friends

how many of you on this forum were born into the jw faith?

do you think this put you at a disadvantage when leaving the org.

do you think that someone who becomes a witness later in life would have an easier time adjusting back to a "normal" life?

artful

Thanks for your reply nakedmvistar: In fact my "integration into normal society" (holidays, celebrations,etc.) is something that I have been slowly immersing my immediate family in during the past two years. Although, this is something that has presented some obstacles - due to lack of experience with the protocols in these areas - I have been thoroughly enjoying this experience!!

In fact this year was the first time that myself and my daughter celebrated Halloween and Christmas together. I was reassured of my decision to do this by the words of my daughter - who was so happy to be doing what all of the other kids were doing - when as we walked together hand in hand at Halloween she hugged me and said:
"Daddy, this is the best day of my life"!!

Cheers
Artful

38

Were you born into the jw faith?

by nakedmvistar in

jw
friends

how many of you on this forum were born into the jw faith?

do you think this put you at a disadvantage when leaving the org.

do you think that someone who becomes a witness later in life would have an easier time adjusting back to a "normal" life?

artful

I was "born" into it, and I think that it does pose a number of difficulties for someone who has not cut themselves off from the JWs. Firstly, because I am not separated from the JWs currently (DFd or DAd) the ramifications of this action makes it a very difficult thing to bring myself to do. I realize that my family, with whom I have a great relationship, would be put in a very difficult position with regards to association with me.
Secondly, my daughter who is very young, could potentially be raised by my wife in an environment which teaches that Daddy is essentially bad! Since these are not very attractive outcomes, it leaves me feeling trapped into maintaining a kind of "inaction" with respect to my disassociation.

Artful