Posts by artful

60

Favorite Movie Quotes

by meadow77 in

jw
friends

i have tons of them, favorite movie quotes that is.

a misspent youth i guess, but i love movies.

i was watching one of my favorites the other day,seven.

artful

"We are the middle children of society. We have no great war. No great depression. Our great war is spiritual, and our great depression is our lives."
Tyler Durden - Fight Club

6

Why There Are So Many Dumb Snakes in India

by onacruse in

from the first book of adam and eve (also known as the conflict of adam and eve with satan) (chapter 18): .

when the accursed serpent saw adam and eve, it swelled its head, stood on its tail, and with eyes blood-red, did as if it would kill them.

it made straight for eve, and ran after her; while adam standing by, wept because he had no stick in his hand wherewith to smite the serpent, and knew not how to put it to death.

artful

Craig: OK, I'll offer you some support!
I guess this provides us with an explanation of why snakes can't talk! Is that why it was preserved for us?!!

Cheers
Artful

35

Paradise: in Heaven or on Earth?

by artful in

the term "paradise earth" is one frequently used by the wts.

while researching the scriptural references to "paradise" (and the official wts explanation for each), i was surprised with what i found regarding the location of paradise.

these are the only three places that the word "paradise" can be found in the bible.. .

Joseph: I agree that the discussion is about where this paradise will be "at the time of its reality", but rather than repeat our discussion about what Paul and John said here, I would suggest that we continue this at the other post that I referenced:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=42689&site=3

Thanks
Artful

9

Are you looking for beliefs or truth?

by Pleasuredome in

here's an interesting quote i found on the net about why we need truth rather than beliefs.

belief has nothing to do with truth.

there is danger in belief: it makes you feel that you know the truth.

artful

Pleasuredome: great thread!

peacefulpete: VERY insightful comments about the psychology behind this tendency...particularly - "What is needed then is to convince people that the lion is not at the door so they can calmly apply more critical thinking skills."

This is of course exactly the opposite of the kind of environment that the WT promotes - rather, they issue urgent reminders that we are in the "dangerous world of Satan", where we must "be alert" and stay part of "the herd". Very interesting that when raised in this "dangerous" environment the natural outcome is that time is not allowed to "apply more critical thinking skills", but rather it fosters the quick development of "life-saving beliefs" which can of course blind us from the truth. This thinking also promotes reliance on the "herd".

Since many of us have come out of that environment, I think that we may be prone to slip back in to the same mentality as we develop new ideas. Personally, this something that I really try to be aware of. I find that in a search for "truth" in the scriptures, there are many different viewpoints and interpretations to consider. Due to the ambiguity of scriptures in many areas, I am learning that it is not always possible to clearly define a true "belief" system for each specific topic. Having grown up in an environment where you are "in the Truth" and have every topic of scripture explained (with insistence on its correctness) it can be difficult to resign oneself to not having an explanation for everything. However, I think that taking the time to be "search" mode is much more satisfying than being frightened into "belief" mode.

Artful

35

Paradise: in Heaven or on Earth?

by artful in

the term "paradise earth" is one frequently used by the wts.

while researching the scriptural references to "paradise" (and the official wts explanation for each), i was surprised with what i found regarding the location of paradise.

these are the only three places that the word "paradise" can be found in the bible.. .

artful

Joseph wrote:
"we cannot and should not accuse anyone of being dogmatic. We should reveal such biased thinking by the proofs offered or even by those not supplied and not by accusations such as this."
Please accept my apology. I assure you that it was not my intention to insult your reasoning by using the word dogmatic (by which I merely suggest that you were asserting your beliefs in such a manner as to "state them as an established tenet" - I did not mean to imply that your reasoning has no adequate grounds). However, considering the scriptural ambiguity on whether "paradise" would be located in heaven or earth, to accuse others of supporting "antichrist" doctrine based on your scriptural interpretation (that paradise will be on earth and that Jesus would return in flesh) seemed to me to be dogmatic.

Joseph wrote:
"The paradise issue is a doctrine of Christ. It was uttered as truth, a fact from which the thief could take comfort. It should be more than considered. It should be understood by all claiming to be disciples of the one that taught this truth in the first place."
I don't dispute that "paradise" is a doctrine of Christ, and I would most assuredly like to share your certainty of belief as to its location. However, based on the scriptural evidence I have considered so far, there seems to be no "undeniable" proof of where it will be. I would suggest that initially the Jews and disciples of Christ were looking for a restoration of paradise to the earth, and as time went on Paul and John (among others) seemed to point to a heavenly citizenship, and therfore my leanings are toward the heavenly (as we are discussing in another thread) -
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=42689&site=3

Artful

7

Waht is a Jehovah-Witness

by No_one_shall_know_my_name in

i haven't really got into the research but what really is a jehovah-witness?could anyone answer that for me.well someone has to know.

artful

Well summed up whyhideit! What dictionary did that come from...LOL!!
Here's what mine says:

Jehovah's Witness: a member of a group that witness by distributing literature and by personal evangelism to beliefs in the theocratic rule of God, the sinfulness of organized religions and government, and an imminent millennium.

Cheers
Artful

19

Old Testament Faithful in Heaven?

by artful in

the wts doctrine that the faithful men and women of old would have no place in heaven in god's kingdom has never really sat right with me.

i did some scriptural research on it and thought i would share it .

any comments would be appreciated.

artful

Joseph: you stated "No" that is not your belief....could you please revise my explanation so I can understand where I have gone wrong with my statement of your belief.
____________
Joseph wrote: "Then I would say that your idea was not true and has no scriptural support. This is because we know for a certainty that Abraham is not there".
I'm sorry I didn't clarify; my suggestion was not that Abraham IS in heaven but rather that Jesus very use of this illustration suggests that the idea of Abraham being in heaven had some basis in reality to Jesus - at some point in time.
__________
As for picking my verse and making my point - since I have already done that with several scriptures above, I will repost below the scriptures which were not commented on:

Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
- Paul indicates that his prize is to be received in heaven with Jesus.

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
- I know that you could say that heavenly Jerusalem refers only to Godly Jerusalem, except that it also refers to thousands of angels in assembly with them (angels who by your own admission live in heaven).

Jesus indicated at Revelation 3:21 "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne" to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
- The location of the "Throne of Christ" and his co-rulers would then point us to the location of (if not all Christians) at least his 12 disciples:,

Matthew 5:34 But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne;

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

Acts 7:49 " 'Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool."

Revelation 3:21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Artful

35

Paradise: in Heaven or on Earth?

by artful in

the term "paradise earth" is one frequently used by the wts.

while researching the scriptural references to "paradise" (and the official wts explanation for each), i was surprised with what i found regarding the location of paradise.

these are the only three places that the word "paradise" can be found in the bible.. .

artful

onacruse: Thanks for that additional information regarding the OT use of the word paradeisos in other translations. It is interesting to note that many bible scholars over the years have also struggled with this issue.

Joseph: I think you are correct in stating that many are afraid to consider new ideas as this may "step on some long cherished ideas and thathurts". I personally do not consider myself in this category as my "long cherished" ideas were squashed years ago when I exited the WTS. I am currently building up a new faith based on scripture and very much appreciate new ideas like yours. Since we have discussed this issue elsewhere (see link above), I won't go into the specific problems I have with your reasoning, however, I would like to continue a point that onacruse made:

The very fact that there is no general consensus on this paradise issue may indicate that there is not enough evidence to say for a certainty what the real truth will be. Since sometimes the scriptural "proofs" for our individual faiths may not be iron clad, I think we need to be cautious about suggesting that anyone who does not see it our way is preaching an "antichrist" doctrine. For instance, Joseph, I know that some like to cite Acts 1:11 as "iron clad" proof that Jesus would return to Earth in the flesh: however, it could also be argued in light of other scriptures that refer to Christians reaching out for heavenly "citizenship", that Jesus "throne" is located in heaven etc. that Acts 1:1 could be understood to mean that Jesus return would be in Spirit with some sort physical manifestation ("as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.").

Not to get into a discussion on the return of Christ...my point is that by extracting our own "proof" scriptures and then insisting that our view is correct when presented with scriptural evidence that suggests a contrary view (when interpreted differently than we do), we are in danger of being as dogmatic as the WTS. Maybe, this paradise issue could be considered in the same way that you suggested regarding "after the 1000 years"...when you wrote "Trying to speculate beyond that is a waste of time". In other words, these "speculation" points make for some interesting discussions, but are in no way strong enough to be considered "basic scriptural truths".

Artful

35

Paradise: in Heaven or on Earth?

by artful in

the term "paradise earth" is one frequently used by the wts.

while researching the scriptural references to "paradise" (and the official wts explanation for each), i was surprised with what i found regarding the location of paradise.

these are the only three places that the word "paradise" can be found in the bible.. .

artful

Musky: thanks for your comment. I tend to agree, that in some ways it really doesn't matter where this paradise is located. However, as an aid to speaking with JWs it's interesting to note that even according to their own theology, the expression "paradise" seems (more often then not) to refer to heaven.

LB: It IS a sex link - just a very subliminal one! Keep looking ;-)

Joseph: Thanks for your input. I know your belief is that no man (either flesh or spirit) will ascend to heaven, only Jesus. I actually responded to this idea in detail in another thread...see:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=42689&site=3

Cheers
Artful

35

Paradise: in Heaven or on Earth?

by artful in

the term "paradise earth" is one frequently used by the wts.

while researching the scriptural references to "paradise" (and the official wts explanation for each), i was surprised with what i found regarding the location of paradise.

these are the only three places that the word "paradise" can be found in the bible.. .

artful

The term "Paradise Earth" is one frequently used by the WTS.
While researching the scriptural references to "paradise" (and the official WTS explanation for each), I was surprised with what I found regarding the location of paradise.
These are the only three places that the word "paradise" can be found in the Bible.

I would be interested in any comments about this idea.
Cheers
Artful
__________
Paradise references in the New Testament (there is no use of the word in the Old Testament)

Luke 23
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth today you will be with me in paradise."

COMMENT- Of the 3 occurrences of the word paradise, this is the only one that is claimed by the WTS to refer to an earthly paradise, however, to determine Jesus' teaching of where paradise was located, see his words to John in Revelation below. Incidentally, I don't cite this scripture to prove that the criminal on the cross beside Jesus would be in paradise with him "that day" as he would certainly not have ascended to heaven ahead of Jesus.

2 Corinthians 12
1I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows. 3And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows-- 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.
COMMENT- Paul's reference to the location of paradise is in the heavens. (The WTS "Insight on the Scriptures" agrees with this thought).

Revelation 2
7He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
COMMENT- Jesus words (written by John) set the location of paradise as in the heavens. (The WTS "Insight on the Scriptures" agrees with this thought).