Nowisee: Due to the WTS propaganda that I swallowed for so many years, I too struggled with this issue. That's great to hear you have realized the invitation to partake applies to everyone.
jgnat: Thanks for your kind words! I too find the nonsense in the current WT study articles to be absolute 'pabulum' and completely unsupported by scripture.
Huxley: I'm with you on that one! Due to the insipid colour of the wine that they had been passing around every April, my wife took it upon herself to supply the wine at the 'Memorial' during the previous two years. However, after our studies together over the past year or so, she will not be offering this year!
Gumby: You are bang on with your assessment! I had an in depth discussion with one of my wife's friends from the hall (and her unbelieving husband) early last year, and her husband made exactly the same comment. There is no way that anyone (in their right mind - as you say) would come up with a 'two classes' theory simply by reading of the NT.
Cheers
Artful
artful
JoinedPosts by artful
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Should the 'other sheep' partake? An 'alien resident' parallel
by artful inanswer: christ's body.
answer: christ's blood.
answer: the new covenant.
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artful
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WT Comments You Will Not Hear at the 3-30-03 WT Study
by blondie inwt comments you will not hear at the 3-30-03 wt study
february 15, 2003. wts quotes will be in red; reviewers comments in black or in parentheses.
why observe the lords evening meal?.
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artful
Thank you for these comments Blondie - this series of articles is very sickening.
It's great to hear that you will really be observing the occasion this year, and not just participating in the annual plate and glass pass! Although my wife will be going and I will not (only my second time in 30 years - I missed last year as well), we have decided to observe this occasion together at home when she returns. Your comment summed up my feelings about this perfectly:
"It will be the first time I will really have my heart into the event".
Thanks
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Should the 'other sheep' partake? An 'alien resident' parallel
by artful inanswer: christ's body.
answer: christ's blood.
answer: the new covenant.
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artful
As many are aware, the WTS teaches that the 'other sheep' are not in the New Covenant, and should not partake of the body and blood of Christ. In support of their 'two classes' doctrine, the WTS also likes to parallel these 'other sheep' to the 'alien residents' who joined with the nation of Israel.
However, an investigation of the 'alien residents' without the assistance of the WTS, reveals some interesting facts that could be paralleled to the 'other sheep'.
Enjoy, and as always, I appreciate any comments.Cheers
Artful
____________Who partook of the manna? Answer: The 'alien residents' Numbers 11
4 The rabble with them began to crave other food, and again the Israelites started wailing and said, "If only we had meat to eat! 5 We remember the fish we ate in Egypt at no cost-also the cucumbers, melons, leeks, onions and garlic. 6 But now we have lost our appetite; we never see anything but this manna!"
Who drank from the rock-mass? Answer: The 'alien residents' 1 Corinthians 10
1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
Who partook of the Passover? Answer: The 'alien residents' Exodus 12
48 "An alien living among you who wants to celebrate the LORD's Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat
of it. 49 The same law applies to the native-born and to the alien living among you."
Who were under the Law Covenant? Answer: The 'alien residents' Exodus 12
49 The same law applies to the native-born and to the alien living among you."__________
What did the manna represent? Answer: Christ's body. John 6:58
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."
What did the water from the rock-mass symbolize? Answer: Christ's blood. 1 Corinthians 10
3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
What did the Passover foreshadow? Answer: The Lord's Evening Meal and Jesus sacrifice. 1 Corinthians 5:7
Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast–as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
What did the Law Covenant foreshadow? Answer: The New Covenant. Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
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ConclusionIf the 'alien residents' are symbolic of the 'other sheep', it would seem obvious from the scriptures above, that since the alien residents;
1. partook of the manna - which symbolized Jesus' body,
2. partook of the water from the rock-mass - which symbolized Jesus' blood,
3. participated in the Passover - which foreshadowed Jesus sacrifice and the Lord's Evening Meal, and,
4. were under the Law Covenant,
then the 'other sheep' should; 1. partake of Jesus' body, 2. partake of Jesus' blood, 3. participate in the Lord's Evening Meal, and, 4. be part of the New Covenant. -
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All About Jesus Christ
by UnDisfellowshipped intruth book (1981), page 52:.
of the resurrection to heavenly life, the bible says: it is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body.
*** the watchtower, march 15th 1954 issue, page 187 ***.
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artful
UD: Some great information here for those who are willing to take the time. I would like to add a scripture regarding praying to Jesus:
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Just the other night I was reading the account in Acts where Mathias was chosen to replace Judas. Here are a couple of verses that struck me as interesting:
Acts1:
21Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection." 23So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs."Three things jump out at me:
1. They have just referred to the "Lord Jesus".
2. They then pray to the "Lord" to ask which one he has chosen.
3. The original twelve were "chosen" by Jesus.
Since the "Lord Jesus" chose the original twelve, and they proceed to pray to the "Lord", it would make sense to me that they were petitioning Jesus regarding a replacement and not the Father.
This leads me to believe that in Acts 1:24 the disciples are praying to Jesus.Cheers
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Remembering the Truth
by ScoobySnax ini have no argument left in me, and no desire to fight really.
when i was inactive i used to look at ex-jws with placard boards outside assemblies or conventions, i knew these people existed even if they were a bit "wacky".
i always used to wonder why these people did this, and to be honest i didn't like them, they looked creepy stood there with their flip charts outside a stadium.
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Well said Sanddigger!
SS: Your fondness for the 'Truth' reminds me of myself many years ago. A time, when I wasn't active in the congregation, but I knew that someday I should, and would come back into the 'Truth'. I had fond memories of the friends I had made throughout my teenage years, and all of my family were in the 'Truth'. In my mind, it was really inevitable that I would return. So eventually, I did. As my dear Mum was fond of saying "You can leave the 'Truth' but the 'Truth' never really leaves you."
Of course when I did return, armed with my 'Truth' mentality, I never really investigated what I was learning. It had already been drilled into my head for many years that this was the 'Truth'. After my baptism, over time, the more I studied the Bible with the WTS, the more I found I could not just 'wait on Jehovah' (read: WTS) to answer the many questions that I had. The answers I received were just not scriptural. Eventually, I had to ask myself who I was following? What was this 'Truth' that I was so fond of. Was it the 'truth' about Christ, or was it my family, my friends, and the feeling of acceptance that I got when I went along with the masses?
Gumby said it very well (to paraphrase): "If you are still a dub at heart, then you need to learn more."
Maybe I'm wrong in saying this SS, but from your comments it sounds like you have never experienced the 'ugliness' that results from the Watchtower Societies' teachings. Things like shunning, marking, disfellowshiping, the cold treatment of people who are inactive, irregular, unbalanced, etc. If you had, you may understand the serious damage that has been inflicted on so many people by the WTS, and you may not be as quick to remember the 'Truth' so fondly.
I hope you find peace.
Cheers
Artful -
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In Case You Have Ears to Hear... But Have Not Yet Heard...
by AGuest in(simon, please forgive me... and if you can, accommodate me... as i have not yet surpassed my new post "limit" for this day.
to the household of god, israel, that is on jw.com, and all those who 'go with' them:
may you have peace!
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artful
AGuest: Thank you for taking the time to put togther this information. I am currently assembling a similar commentary, and very much enjoyed reading your expressions. I paticularily appreciated your point regarding those who were 'alien residents' with the nation of Israel who ALL ate the manna, drank from the rock-mass, celebrated the Passover, were under the Law Covenant, etc. The scriptures in Numbers and Exodus, and 1 Corinthians certainly illustrate that those with them ate the manna, celebrated the Passover, were under law, etc. This information was very helpful to me, as a JW had recently suggested to me that the 'alien residents' were not under the law covenant (supporting the idea that the 'great crowd' are not under the NC) and these scriptures certainly help to prove otherwise!
Thank you for pointing out the scripture in Matthew 23:13. It really provides a very powerful parallel to the WTS! And I enjoyed your point that: "There is no 'authority' by which ANY man can 'shut up the kingdom', for there is only ONE 'door'... and ONE 'doorkeeper'"
Cheers
Artful -
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Comments You Will Not Hear at the 3-23-03 WT Study
by blondie incomments you will not hear at the 3-23-03 wt study
february 15, 2003, page 18.
(the reviewers comments are in black or within parentheses.
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artful
Hi Blondie: Thanks for posting these references to John 15. It appears that the earlier quotes interpret 'bearing fruit' as actually being productive by making disciples and state that this is not the same as just sowing seed. (5/1/58 WT, 4/1/58 WT). Then, the 60, 64, 76, 78, 83, 01 WTs associate 'bearing fruit' to displaying the fruitage of the spirit, and Christlike qualities (fine deeds toward others, political neutrality, etc.). None of these dispel the idea taught in the 50's that bearing fruit meant making disciples, but rather they seem to expand the meaning to include exhibiting Christlike qualities.
I'm not sure where the last quote came from, but it seems to revert back to the 50's teaching by suggesting that the fruitage of the Kingdom ministry is evidenced by the growth in disciples - namely the 300,000 new ones who are added each year: "(John 15:8) Both by the fruitage of the spirit and by the Kingdom fruitage of their ministry, the disciples brought glory to Jehovah Today, Jehovah's blessing is upon his people as they engage in a global spiritual harvest. For a number of years now, about 300,000 new ones every year"In all of these quotes, there doesn't seem to be any mention that 'bearing fruit' represents 'sowing seeds' - in fact they state exactly the opposite. However, the quote from this weeks WT says: "the fruitage in this case is neither new disciples nor fine Christian qualities."
I would therefore suggest that the WT study of this week represents a change in doctrine for the WTS regarding Jesus illustration of the branches and the vine!
Of course, I wouldn't expect that any of the 'faithful' would notice this change as they ingest this 'food at the proper time'!
Thanks Blondie
Artful -
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ANNE GRAHAM
by Scorpion inin light of the many.
another for a laugh, this is a little.
different: this is not intended to be a. joke, it's not funny, it's intended to.
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artful
"How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"
As a Christian, I definitely find the above thought process unreasonable - namely: "If we are good Christians then God will protect us from physical harm, but if we are not, then we are more likely to be subject to physical harm". I don't believe that Jesus or any of his disciples taught this.
Having said that, I would suggest that it is also unreasonable for those who 'ask God to leave them alone' to then blame him when any catastrophic event occurs. God is either directly responsible for the bad AND good that happen in our lives, or he is not. I don't believe that we can have it both ways.
Personally, I don't believe that God is directly responsible for the events that occur in our individual day to day affairs. He has equipped each and every one of us with the capacity for moral values and principles (whether we are Christian or not), and any monumental events that occur in our lives (good or bad) are primarily the result of our own actions, the actions of those around us, or chance occurrence. But that's just me, maybe I have it all wrong!
Cheers
Artful -
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Is the Watchtower Sterile Seed?
by jgnat inwt february 1
keep bearing much fruit
study march 23, 2003
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artful
Blondie: good point about being hard-pressed to find young adults as examples. The younger generation are very computer and Web literate, and have much greater access to information then we ever did. I think this problem for the WTS will continue to grow.
Artful -
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Comments You Will Not Hear at the 3-23-03 WT Study
by blondie incomments you will not hear at the 3-23-03 wt study
february 15, 2003, page 18.
(the reviewers comments are in black or within parentheses.
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artful
Blondie: Do you know if this interpretation of John 15:1-8 represents a change in doctrine for the WTS? I looked up this passage in the Insight book but they offer no interpretation there. Since I don't have access to a WT CD-ROM I wasn't able to find any other reference to the vine and branches illustration. I'm sure they have always taught that 'bearing fruit' meant making disciples, not distributing seed. Since I believe you have a WT CD, would you mind checking this?
Thanks alot!
Artful