To all of you who are truly honest with yourself you will have to admit that when we went into Afghanistan all of us as Americans knew it was the right thing. We were all behind Bush (except those who were ideologically opposed to him regardless of what he did). It was easy to be behind Bush because he was right. However, Bush never had the majority of the American people fully behind him when he went into Iraq. The reason? Because we as a people were smart enough to know deep down that this wasn't necessary. Afghanistan necessary, Iraq not necessary. Even though I did not want Bush to get elected in 2000 I did support his decision to take out the Taliban and Al Queda, simply because it was just and necessary. But whatever respect Bush managed to gain from me he lost by going into Iraq. I really hoped that they would find those WMD's so at least we as America would be able to retain some measure of respectability in the world. Absent of those weapons it becomes difficult to respect or trust the President. It's kind of like a bait and switch. In some ways it's similar to the Watchtower Society. When what they said was going to happen didn't materialize they simply changed the message. Bush has done the same thing. The central theme was originally WMD's, but now it's changed. If Saddam wasn't an eminent threat then I'm sorry, but I can't support the decision to go in. And the fact that thousands of persons (mostly Iraqis) have died based upon Bush's faulty and wrong decisions make it extremely difficult for me to see any way of justifying this nation electing Bush to a second term. As far as Dean is concerned he has seemed impressive at times, but like all politicians he is only human, as is Kerrey.
zugzwang
JoinedPosts by zugzwang
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We had a prophet among us...
by SixofNine in... and we chose a politician instead.
prophetic words from wes clark before the senate armed services committe 9/23/2002:.
gen. clark: yes, sir.
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To The Opposers of George W. Bush and The War In Iraq
by L_A_Big_Dawg inas i read grenpalmtrees post to those of us that support president bush and the current iraqi war, i was reminded that i needed to do something concrete to show me support for this situation.
so i contacted camp pendleton (a marine base which has lost a number of troops in iraq), and spoke with an officer, and asked what i could do to support the families of those that have paid the ultimate price in this war.
he gave me a list of accounts, and i have since donated money to those accounts.
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zugzwang
IMHO the best way to support our troops is to not put them in an unnecessary war in the first place. Another way to support them would be by removing the "commander in chief" that put them there for all of the wrong reasons in the first place. We can support our troops by not giving up the very freedom of speech which they are dying for. That freedom of speech should and will be used against any president who misuses his power and authority. We can support our troops by electing a president who can muster popular support from other nations so that they will send in more troops and less US forces would be needed. Obviously this president can't muster up that popular support. So you think it would by in the best interests of the troops to have a president who has shown he can't get the world's support or would we be doing our troops a greater service by replacing the unilateralist with someone else? No guarantee that Kerrey is any better, but obviously these other nations aren't going to support us as long as Bush is at the helm. But that is just my opinion.
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Bush Admin Officials Admit that Press Conference Was Rigged RE: MAR '03
by WhyNow2000 inthe comment is in regards to march 2003 press conference.. .
communications director dan bartlett said this white house uses news conferences more sparingly than other types of presidential events, because "if you have a message you're trying to deliver, a news conference can go in a different direction.".
"in this case, we know what the questions are going to be, and those are the ones we want to answer," bartlett said.
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zugzwang
I was a bit surprised that Bush chose to answer a question from the reporter from National Public Radio. NPR is a left wing organization and it was kind of shocking to see the prez put himself out there like that knowing that the question was going to be more direct than what he might get from one of the network drones. That was either courageous or stupid on his part.
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I wasn't going to post this here but.....
by RevMalk in.
i couldn't control myself.
i'm going to be a father (again)!!.
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zugzwang
"Would it be Scripturally proper for them to now marry and to begin to rear children? No, is the answer, which is supported by the Scripture...It will be far better to be unhampered and without burdens, that they may do the Lord's will now, as the Lord commands, and also be without hindrance during Armageddon. Those Jonadabs who now contemplate marriage, it would seem, would do better if they wait a few years, until the fiery storm of Armageddon is gone..." (1938, Face The Facts p. 47)
Be careful, after all the "faithful slave" recommends against it, and we all know the "slave" is never wrong.
This quote is so pathetic considering that my parent's were born after this "scriptural counsel" was given by the "slave."
If a person would have had a child in 1938 (when the above statement was made) that child would have been 20 in 1958. If that child would have had a child in 1958 then his child would have been 20 in 1978. Had that child had a child when he was 20 then that kid would have been 20 in 1998. In other words the person back in 1938 could have been a great- great grandparent and still the end would not have come. The person born in 1978 could have had a kid by now and that would make the first guy a great- great- great grandparent! That's five generations that potentially could have passed since the time of this WTS prediction.
"Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the worm is a reward. . . Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them; they shall not be ashamed, but shall speak with their enemies in the gate." Psalm 127: 3, 5
Congratulations on your from the Lord!!!!
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Happy Resurrection Day!
by UnDisfellowshipped inthis is a couple days late, but actually, this message is always on time.. this message is the power of god.. happy resurrection day to everyone!.
romans 3:23: for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of god.
romans 5:12: by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for all have sinned.
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zugzwang
Thank God for the free gift.
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The WTS- The Hananiah Class
by zugzwang inhere in verse two through four hananiah declares: "this is what jehovah of armies, the god of israel, has said, ?i will break the yoke of the king of babylon.
" and jeconiah the son of jehoiakim, the king of judah, and all the exiles of judah who have come to babylon i am bringing back to this place,?
" here we have a prophecy being uttered by hananiah.
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zugzwang
The Bible gives an example of what a false prophet might sound like at Jeremiah chapter 28. Here the account is given of Hananiah. Here in verse two through four Hananiah declares: "This is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, has said, ?I will break the yoke of the king of Babylon. Within two full years more I am bringing back to this place all the utensils of the house of Jehovah that Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon took from this place that he might bring them to Babylon.?" And Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim, the king of Judah, and all the exiles of Judah who have come to Babylon I am bringing back to this place,? is the utterance of Jehovah, ?for I shall break the yoke of the king of Babylon.?" Here we have a prophecy being uttered by Hananiah. Notice some of the characteristics of this prophecy. One, he speaks in Jehovah's name, two, he says what the people want to hear, and three, he sets a time period for his prophecy. Notice next Jeremiah's reaction to this prophecy. Starting at verse five the account continues: "And Jeremiah the prophet proceeded to say to Hananiah the prophet before the eyes of the priests and before the eyes of all the people who were standing in the house of Jehovah; yes, Jeremiah the prophet proceeded to say: 'Amen! Thus may Jehovah do! May Jehovah establish your words that you have prophesied by bringing back the utensils of the house of Jehovah and all the exiled people from Babylon to this place! However, hear, please, this word that I am speaking in your ears and in the ears of all the people. As regards the prophets that happened to be prior to me and prior to you from long ago, they also used to prophesy concerning many lands and concerning great kingdoms, of war and of calamity and of pestilence. As regards the prophet that prophesies of peace, when the word of the prophet comes true the prophet whom Jehovah has sent in truth will become known."
Notice especially the last part of what Jeremiah said, "when the word of the prophet comes true the prophet whom Jehovah has sent in truth will become known." In other words, a person can say all they want that they are sent by God, but the proof is in whether or not what they pronounce comes true. Notice now the fourth thing that Hananiah does, he repeats the prophecy. "At that Hananiah the prophet took the yoke bar from off the neck of Jeremiah the prophet and broke it. And Hananiah went on to say before the eyes of all the people: This is what Jehovah has said, "Just like this I shall break the yoke of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon within two full years more from off the neck of all the nations."' And Jeremiah the prophet proceeded to go his way." What is the outcome of this? The chapter continues: "Then the word of Jehovah occurred to Jeremiah, after Hananiah the prophet had broken the yoke bar from off the neck of Jeremiah the prophet, saying: 'Go, and you must say to Hananiah, "This is what Jehovah has said: 'Yoke bars of wood you have broken, and instead of them you will have to make yoke bars of iron.' For this is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, has said: 'A yoke of iron I will put upon the neck of all these nations, to serve Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon; and they must serve him. And even the wild beasts of the field I will give him.' And Jeremiah the prophet went on to say to Hananiah the prophet: 'Listen, please, O Hananiah! Jehovah has not sent you, but you yourself have caused this people to trust in a falsehood. Therefore this is what Jehovah has said, 'Look! I am sending you away from off the surface of the ground. This year you yourself must die, for you have spoken outright revolt against Jehovah.?" Yes in the eyes of our Lord it is a serious wrong to say you speak for him when you really do not.
Now this account about Hananiah is not put in the Bible for no reason, it is put there as an example of what a false prophet would sound like and how you could identify a false prophet. What Hananiah said was going to happen did not happen. Well has the WTS ever made any statements that sounded similar to what Hananiah said?
Notice what they said in 1920 in the booklet, Millions Now Living Will Never Die: "Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old...." (1920, Millions Now Living Will Never Die p. 89-90) So basically in 1920 the WTS was saying that in just five years more Jehovah was going to resurrected these men. Remember Hananiah's words, "Within two full years more."
What did the WTS say in 1917: "Also, in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by millions, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of Christianity." (1917, The Finished Mystery p. 485) Within one full year.
What was stated in 1889: "In the coming 26 years, all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved."- 1889, Studies in the Scriptures Vol. 2 p. 98-99
What did they say in 1941: We are "in the remaining months before Armageddon."- WT September 15, 1941 p. 288.
What did they say in 1971: "Shortly, within our twentieth century, the 'battle in the day of Jehovah' will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom."- 1971, "The Nations Shall Know that I Am Jehovah"- How? p. 216
I could continue to give reference after reference demonstrating that the WTS remarkably resembles, not Jeremiah who's shoes they claim to fill, but rather that they resemble Hananiah. They- one, speak in God's name, two, say what their followers want to hear, three, set a time limit for their prophecies and four, they repeat them over and over again. The WTS should call itself the Hananiah class rather than the Jeremiah class.
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Another JW Questions 1914 At The Meeting!!!
by minimus inmy mother told me that a regular pioneer in his 60's from a nearby hall questioned how we could be sure 1914 was the date christ was enthroned as king of the kingdom.
he questioned the brother conducting the meeting for field service.
it didn't go well......he left that hall and is reported missing in action!
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zugzwang
Yeah for me, I figured it out. Life's simple joys!
I feel like I should somebody and tell them I deserve .
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Another JW Questions 1914 At The Meeting!!!
by minimus inmy mother told me that a regular pioneer in his 60's from a nearby hall questioned how we could be sure 1914 was the date christ was enthroned as king of the kingdom.
he questioned the brother conducting the meeting for field service.
it didn't go well......he left that hall and is reported missing in action!
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zugzwang
I posted on this topic already but I hadn't figured out how to format it properly yet so I am going to try again so it will be easier to read. Here goes:
How could that brother doubt the WTS? After all they have never been wrong before:
"In the coming 26 years, all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved."- 1889, Studies in the Scriptures Vol. 2 p. 98-99
"Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present, since October 1874, A.D....and the formal inauguration of his kingly office dates from April 1878, A.D."- 1897, Studies in the Scriptures Vol. 4 p. 621
"Also, in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by millions, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of Christianity."- 1917, The Finished Mystery p. 485
"The indisputable facts, therefore, show that the 'time of the end' began in 1799; that the Lord's second presence began in 1874." (WT March 1, 1922)
Apparently those facts were disputable because later the same organization that presented these facts changed the dates involved."Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old...." (1920, Millions Now Living Will Never Die p. 89-90)
The whole basis of the statement "millions now living will never die" (which the WTS still proudly uses) was based upon the teaching of the WTS that the end was going to occur in 1925. Notice how the writer says "we may confidently expect." Notice a similar statement in the WT January 1, 1997 p. 11: "In the early 1920?s, a featured public talk presented by Jehovah?s Witnesses was entitled 'Millions Now Living Will Never Die.' This may have reflected overoptimism at that time. But today that statement can be made with full confidence." The fact that a woefully false and inaccurate statement was made is glossed over by saying it was mearly "overoptimism." In addition, the author makes the same mistake that Rutherford made back in the 1920's. Just as in the early 1920's they were sure they could "confidently expect" something that didn't happen, so too in the 1997 article reference is made to having "full confidence." How can I, or anyone else, have "full confidence" in a statement made by an organization that made the same statement 75 years earlier that turned out to be completely wrong? Is the WTS more confident now than it was back then? How could they be, notice just how confident they were back then in this next quotation."We have no doubt whatever in regard to the chronology relating to the dates of 1874, 1914, 1918, and 1925. It was on this line of reckoning that the dates 1874, 1914, and 1918 were located; and the Lord has placed the stamp of his seal upon 1914 and 1918 beyond any possibility of erasure. What further evidence do we need? Using this same measuring line.... it is an easy matter to locate 1925, probably in the fall, for the beginning of the antitypical jubilee. There can be no more question about 1925 than there was about 1914." (WT May 15, 1922)
It is difficult to see how they could say that this was merely "overoptimism." There was no question, "no doubt whatever," in fact they stated that "the Lord has placed the stamp of his seal. . .beyond any possibility of erasure." They were so confident that they said it would occur "probably in the fall." How much more confident or specific could they have been? They were to have as much confidence in 1925 as in 1914. Since obviously nothing happened in 1925 what does that tell us about 1914? For the WTS to say that this was merely "overoptimism" is downright deceitful!"This chronology is not of man, but of God. Being of divine origin and divinely corroborated, present-truth chronology stands in a class by itself, absolutely and unqualifiedly correct...."- WT July 15, 1922 p. 217
"The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures than 1914." (WT September 1, 1922 p. 262)
Again, if 1925 is even more certain than 1914, and obviously nothing happened in 1925, what does that tell us about 1914?"Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge." (WT April 1, 1923 p. 106)
This shows that strength of conviction and strong belief don't make something true. The year 1925 was not "definitely settled by the scriptures" and no amount of insisting that it was would make it so. It was truly presumptuous for the WTS to say that they knew more than Noah."Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874." (WT January 1, 1924 p. 5)
Today anyone who has doubt about the teachings of the WTS is also looked down upon just as is being encouraged here. Notice this statement was made in 1924. Even as late as 1929 the WTS still taught that Christ's return was in 1874 rather than 1914. Today if you or I taught this teaching, for which there was "not the slightest room for doubt," we would be charged with spreading apostate teachings."Napoleon began this Egyptian campaign in 1798, finished it, and then returned to France on October 1, 1799. The campaign is briefly , yet graphically described in the prophecy, verses 40-44; and its being completed in 1799 marks, according to the prophet's own words, the beginning of "the time of the end."- 1927, Creation p. 293
"The Scriptural proof is that the second presence of the Lord Jesus Christ began in 1874 A.D. This proof is specifically set out in the booklet entitled Our Lord's Return." (1929, Prophecy p. 65, 66)
Here is a statement from 1929 showing that 1874 was still held to be the date of Christ's second presence long after 1914 had passed."... the second advent of the Lord Jesus Christ dates from about 1875."- WT October 15, 1930 p. 308
All of these points are part of my letter of disassociation. I haven't sent it in yet, don't know if I ever will. I don't feel that I need to, but it is still good to go over these things from time to time to remind myself of just how screwed up the WTS is. I hope this turns out better this time when I post it.
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Another JW Questions 1914 At The Meeting!!!
by minimus inmy mother told me that a regular pioneer in his 60's from a nearby hall questioned how we could be sure 1914 was the date christ was enthroned as king of the kingdom.
he questioned the brother conducting the meeting for field service.
it didn't go well......he left that hall and is reported missing in action!
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zugzwang
How could that brother doubt the WTS? After all they have never been wrong before: "In the coming 26 years, all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved."- 1889, Studies in the Scriptures Vol. 2 p. 98-99 "Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present, since October 1874, A.D....and the formal inauguration of his kingly office dates from April 1878, A.D."- 1897, Studies in the Scriptures Vol. 4 p. 621 "Also, in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by millions, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of Christianity."- 1917, The Finished Mystery p. 485 "The indisputable facts, therefore, show that the 'time of the end' began in 1799; that the Lord's second presence began in 1874." (WT March 1, 1922) Apparently those facts were disputable because later the same organization that presented these facts changed the dates involved. "Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old...." (1920, Millions Now Living Will Never Die p. 89-90) The whole basis of the statement "millions now living will never die" (which the WTS still proudly uses) was based upon the teaching of the WTS that the end was going to occur in 1925. Notice how the writer says "we may confidently expect." Notice a similar statement in the WT January 1, 1997 p. 11: "In the early 1920?s, a featured public talk presented by Jehovah?s Witnesses was entitled 'Millions Now Living Will Never Die.' This may have reflected overoptimism at that time. But today that statement can be made with full confidence." The fact that a woefully false and inaccurate statement was made is glossed over by saying it was mearly "overoptimism." In addition, the author makes the same mistake that Rutherford made back in the 1920's. Just as in the early 1920's they were sure they could "confidently expect" something that didn't happen, so too in the 1997 article reference is made to having "full confidence." How can I, or anyone else, have "full confidence" in a statement made by an organization that made the same statement 75 years earlier that turned out to be completely wrong? Is the WTS more confident now than it was back then? How could they be, notice just how confident they were back then in this next quotation. "We have no doubt whatever in regard to the chronology relating to the dates of 1874, 1914, 1918, and 1925. It was on this line of reckoning that the dates 1874, 1914, and 1918 were located; and the Lord has placed the stamp of his seal upon 1914 and 1918 beyond any possibility of erasure. What further evidence do we need? Using this same measuring line.... it is an easy matter to locate 1925, probably in the fall, for the beginning of the antitypical jubilee. There can be no more question about 1925 than there was about 1914." (WT May 15, 1922) It is difficult to see how they could say that this was merely "overoptimism." There was no question, "no doubt whatever," in fact they stated that "the Lord has placed the stamp of his seal. . .beyond any possibility of erasure." They were so confident that they said it would occur "probably in the fall." How much more confident or specific could they have been? They were to have as much confidence in 1925 as in 1914. Since obviously nothing happened in 1925 what does that tell us about 1914? For the WTS to say that this was merely "overoptimism" is downright deceitful! "This chronology is not of man, but of God. Being of divine origin and divinely corroborated, present-truth chronology stands in a class by itself, absolutely and unqualifiedly correct...."- WT July 15, 1922 p. 217 "The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures than 1914." (WT September 1, 1922 p. 262) Again, if 1925 is even more certain than 1914, and obviously nothing happened in 1925, what does that tell us about 1914? "Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge." (WT April 1, 1923 p. 106) "Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874." (WT January 1, 1924 p. 5) Today anyone who has doubt about the teachings of the WTS is also looked down upon just as is being encouraged here. Notice this statement was made in 1924. Even as late as 1929 the WTS still taught that Christ's return was in 1874 rather than 1914. Today if you or I taught this teaching, for which there was "not the slightest room for doubt," we would be charged with spreading apostate teachings. "Napoleon began this Egyptian campaign in 1798, finished it, and then returned to France on October 1, 1799. The campaign is briefly , yet graphically described in the prophecy, verses 40-44; and its being completed in 1799 marks, according to the prophet's own words, the beginning of "the time of the end."- 1927, Creation p. 293 "The Scriptural proof is that the second presence of the Lord Jesus Christ began in 1874 A.D. This proof is specifically set out in the booklet entitled Our Lord's Return." (1929, Prophecy p. 65, 66) Here is a statement from 1929 showing that 1874 was still held to be the date of Christ's second presence long after 1914 had passed. "... the second advent of the Lord Jesus Christ dates from about 1875."- WT October 15, 1930 p. 308 Obviously, 1914 is a certain date, just like 1925.:)
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The Unforgiven
by Truth2Me inthis metallica song really speaks to me....sometimes it seems like the band must have studied what it's like to be disfellowshipped....they could have called the title "the disfellowshipped.
" been really struggling lately...wanted to share this, maybe some of you can relate..... unforgiven.
that old man here is me.
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zugzwang
My father died as a result of the blood issue back in 95. Since that time I have been dealing with guilt because I had the opportunity to save his life and I did not do it. In the hospital the doctor's asked my mom and myself if there wias anything else that we would like them to do to save his life. He had already had cardiac arrest once and they had revived him, but they were telling us the only chance we had of keeping him alive was to give him blood. He of course was unconscious so they were leaving the decision to us. My mom was too distraught so she asked me what to do. I was 19 at the time, a pioneer with aspirations to go to Bethel. I knew what was "right" so I told the doctor's that there was nothing else to be done. My father died shortly thereafter. For the past few years I have held some guilt over this. But as a JW I felt like I did what had to be done. But now that I am out and have learned new things about blood and how it transfers naturally between twins in their mother's womb, that guilt is stronger than ever. I have dubbed myself "unforgiven" because of the choice I made he tries to please them all this bitter man he is throughout his life the same he's battled constantly this fight he cannot win a tired man they see no longer cares the old man then prepares to die regretfully that old man here is me Those lyrics describe me quite well. I tried all my life to please everyone else, always doing what I was supposed to do. But it was a fight I could not win. Eventually I had to face the truth that everything that I believed in and fought for was a lie. Now I feel like I am trying to avoid becoming the tired old man who no longer cares. First though I must forgive myself for the mistakes of the past, one which may have cost my father his life. Of course, ultimately it was his decision and giving him a blood transfusion at that late stage may not have made a difference anyway. I think not forgiving oneself is one of the greatest barriers to moving on with one's life.